02-12-1999 02:15									#1
	Great Lib revisited Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I know we have discussed this in depth recently, but I want to ask about the GL in a different light. I just read one of the strat guides found at this site by Mike Laplaunte and he said "if a computer player beats you to the Library, the game is pretty much over"; and that "the GL is easily the most important wonder in the game, failure to get this wonder will cost you a lot of diplomats." Mind you, he doesn't do a Science City and basically ignores tech advances (he steals them much more than research them). This opinion is not what most of us talked about earlier so I'm trying to understand where he's coming from and how this works.

	02-12-1999 03:24									#2
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Steve: that strat guide you read is probably outdated to the point where most peoples' opinions of the GL have changed. It was once thought essential for two reasons....1 it filled up the gaps in your research thus allowing for a more specialized science path and 2 keep it out of the AI's hands as one plans to be a leader in tech and we all know that at least one other civ is going to get off to a good scientific start as well. No sense in allowing free techs to a third civ and complicating things.

However, public opinion around here is that the GL is unecessary for the most part in AI games and great in MP games as it can counteract a powerfull alliance until electricity.
IMO but i would rather steal the ten techs i want.... for the same price as opposed to being given 10 techs that maybe i don't want.
this is an average based on the costs of dips to the GL. I am aware that stealing does not always give you what you want but if you already have an embassy then you will know when it is time to get that tech.
Maybe that strat guide was more warmongering and the great library is a good thing to have if you are not as concerned about science.

	02-12-1999 12:38									#3
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Don't waste resources on the Great Library. It's better to have good diplomatic relations with the GL holder, so you can exchange knowledge.
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Scouse Git (2)

	02-12-1999 20:37									#4
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It's too bad the AI doesn't play strategically. I always build the super science city, and only rarely have to race for one of the key wonders. It would be interesting to play against an opponent who had the same goal. If I failed to complete the science city, I might decide then to build the Library and focus on production.

	03-12-1999 00:28									#5
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I think you hit on a good use of the Great Library -- when you don't have a good science city. I've been doing well with the science city lately (since reading this forum) and had stopped building the GL. However in my latest game the science city didn't work out right -- I didn't have good terrain, I had early defensive issues with an AI civ, and I lost Copernicus to another one. I belatedly built the GL and got a lot of key techs from it. In this situation I think it has been the difference in keeping me in the leading position.

	03-12-1999 01:26									#6
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I don't play the Mata Hari strategy, but GL is good for that. The Mata Hari strategy--build marketplaces before libraries, and once you've got GL, set science low. Build up your cash. Buy cities. Everytime you buy a city, you get a tech anyway. The GW and MPE are good for this strategy.

	09-12-1999 23:21									#7
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I might have to rethink the GL after reading this thread. While I'm only beginning to get my feet wet with Civ II (12 games or so), I've come to believe that the GL is a must have wonder. If building the super science city is what I think it is (Copernicus + Isaac), I just don't see the one city outproducing all the other civilizations.

Why not build the GL AND steal advances from neighbors?

	09-12-1999 23:24									#8
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I might have to rethink the GL after reading this thread. While I'm only beginning to get my feet wet with Civ II (12 games or so), I've come to believe that the GL is a must have wonder. If building the super science city is what I think it is (Copernicus + Isaac), I just don't see the one city outproducing all the other civilizations.

Why not build the GL AND steal advances from neighbors?

	10-12-1999 00:32									#9
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I have rethought the GL and found it to be rather useful. In a game where racing through the tree to get to AC is the goal, any help from your neighbors can't hurt. Whether I get the advance through GL/stealing/trading, it doesn't matter. Plus, building the GL was no sacrifice, I didn't build it instead of something, I built it at the same I had two other cities building the GW and Colossus.

	10-12-1999 01:21									#10
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kcbob...It helps to have the Colossus in the science city as well as Copernicus and Newton. If you can grow your science city so that it has a population of 20 or so, then the one city will probably produce more science than the rest of your cities put together and, perhaps, more than any single AI civilization. It is hard to tell about AI civilizations. They sometimes have curious abilities when it comes to researching science.

It can be hard to do; if you can, try to build the Hanging Gardens in the city you want for a science city. It's a big help for pre-Republic science. Another trick for lots of science is to build Shakespeare's Theatre in a science city that has the Hanging Gardens. When you are able to combine Republic with Shakespeare you can use We Love The Consul Days to grow your science city to a population of 20 or so. Don't be afraid to set your luxury rate to an absurdly high level for a limited time to aid in this growth.

Don't forget those caravans. Trade caravans with AI civilizations help your science a great deal. I am under direct orders from Ming to never give the importance of caravans a rest. If you build lots a caravans for trade, you won't have to bother with stealing advances from the AI. You will leave them in your dust.

	11-12-1999 00:08									#11
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Thanks for the advice. I guess I'll have to give building a science city a whirl in my next game. But then what do I do if I like the outcome? I'll have more to consider in future games, huh?

As for building caravans to assist in science, how does that work? I thought the only benefit from caravans was money and assisting in building wonders.

And sorry for the double post up above. First time jitters. Now let's hope this doesn't get posted twice, too. No excuse now.

	11-12-1999 00:19									#12
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kcbob - The number of coins you get for delivering a caravan is half of the bonus. You also get the same number of beakers applied to your science research. Check out the science advisor before and after a trade route gets established.

	11-12-1999 04:08									#13
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kcbob...Each advance takes a certain number of science beakers. As Sten Sture says, when you deliver a caravan you get as many science beakers as you get gold coins. The rub is that you can not actually get a new advance from the delivery of a caravan. Once the lab bench is filled with beakers any additional beakers you get from caravans fall to the floor. For this reason prior to delivering a caravan check to see approximately how many beakers you need to fill your lab bench. If it is a lot, deliver the caravan. If you think you will waste a lot of beakers consider delaying deliver until the next turn.

Immediately prior to delivering the caravan open the map for the caravan's home city and maximize that city's trade. Put everyone to work on ocean squares gold mines whatever. Don't worry about food shortages, shield deficits, or disorder. At the time of delivery you want the city's trade to be as high as possible. Before you hit the end of turn button make sure you go back and reposition all the workers. THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS LAST STEP CAN NOT BE OVERESTIMATED.

If you are delivering a ship load of caravans to an ally be aware of the fact that your trusty ally may repudiate the alliance after the first caravan on the ship comes ashore. (Direct deliveries from ship to city do not count.) The first one you put ashore should be the one you most want to deliver. If the alliance is repudiated, the caravans on your ship, as well as the ship, will go to your nearest city. Sooner or later your ally will do this to you.

It is much cheaper to bribe cities when they are in disorder and AI cities go into disorder with some regularity. Since trade routes increase the happiness of a city, AI cities with trade routes will be less likely to go into disorder. Since you can never bribe the capitol, when it is reasonable to do so, deliver goods to the capitol. For one thing the capitol is usually a large AI city so its trade will be large. If the capitol doesn't need the commodity but some other nearby city does I would deliver the commodity to the other city.

If you can not think of a really good reason why you should build something other than a caravan, build a caravan.

	11-12-1999 04:17									#14
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jpk - You should make the caravan admonition your signature. "jpk's Theorem"

	11-12-1999 06:15									#15
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Science city is a tehnique for those who love micromanagment, since it best shows its potential in mid late to late game, by when a good conquerer is at its gate.

	11-12-1999 13:20									#16
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Caravan? dag nab, I never use those. Especially not in multiplayer. Speaking of which, in MP the GL is invaluable to me because I never bother moving all those diplomats around all over the place to try to steal techs. Who would do such a thing? And it would be a pain in the butt to move them all around anyway, because it's not like I ever build a lot of boats.

	11-12-1999 21:58									#17
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Sten Sture...Like this?

Somehow I goofed, there is nothing at the bottom of this message.
[This message has been edited by jpk (edited December 11, 1999).]

	14-12-1999 03:46									#18
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If you can not think of a really good reason why you should build something other than a caravan, build a caravan. - jpk