06-12-2000 05:58									#1
	OK someone please tell me where I can find a REAL manual for this game Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have finished reading the pamphlet. For what reason I do not know. Yes I know about the great library. But reading long texts from a computer screen hurt my eyes. yeah that was whiney so what. Is it too much to expect a manual from a game? In commandos the manual was in the cd sleevelet . Absolutely nothing in there about modifying the game, including no info on scenario/map creation. Is this too much to expect? I know I can eventually figure it out, but how much time must I waste on this? It's like they assume I already own CTP1 and know how to do this. Which I don't.

If not I would generally love to see some strategy guides.

thanks for any help

[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited December 05, 2000).]

	06-12-2000 06:08									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Always glad to help out a socialist.

Nears as I can tell, if you found these forums, you've already found the closest thing I've seen to a manual. Browse around through these posts, and you'll learn alot, and also how to learn more.

As for the manual in the box, wasn't that just an ad to try to get me to spend another $20 on the "strategy guide"? Don't remember much real info in there.

	06-12-2000 06:45									#4
	Suffering from ads?

I haven't seen a manual that has been useful in a long time. The current policy seems to be as cryptic as possible then release a "strategy guide" that amounts to what the manual should have been in the first place... a way to get another $20. It isn't just this game that has a worthless manual, it's everygame since around 1992.

	06-12-2000 07:52									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Not for Civ2 and SMAC... SMAC's manual was amazing, rendering the Strat Guide almost useless!

	06-12-2000 09:00									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

OK I actually need the manual now. I can kick ass once I get knights. But for some reason I'm struggling on the the high levels. I know I jumped too far from easy, but easy was just too easy. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. My research rate is horrible. It is taking a very long time just to get monarchy. I'm certain when I get knights I can kick some major ass, but I can't seem to get there. I know I'm new to ctp games, but surely there is something I'm doing wrong science wise. the manual just hasn't helped me.

	06-12-2000 10:52									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yeah the manual is a piece of crap. What I find especially annoying is their habit of going into long historical descriptions and skimping on gameplay information.
What do they think: that I read the CTP2 manual for lessons on world history?

	06-12-2000 11:13									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Imran, the funny thing about the SMAC manual is that the forum posters help make sure it was good. Back in the Silmarilian days (Firaxis branching thread days), Brian or Jeff or somebody from Firaxis posted and said, "We know nobody likes manuals, but what are the minimum things we should put in there?" Man, I was so all over his ass! I told him that I'd read my entire owner's manual to my car after buying a car and with Civ2, it was even worse! All the posters wrote in and told Firaxis to do the right thing and make it a good manual.

I even think writing a good manual can help the design process. If you have an evolving draft. "Clear writing is clear thinking."
[This message has been edited by GP (edited December 06, 2000).]

	06-12-2000 12:33									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hehe... read the manual to your car, did ya?

Well, you efforts were not in vain. SMAC's manual was perhaps the best one for a game ever. The appendix with the info was just a GREAT added touch!

	06-12-2000 13:44									#10
	Suffering from ads?

yeah that's what I was thinking. I forgot how good that manual was. They left out a few things like unlimited range missiles . Amazingly I think a couple of reviews critisized the size of the manual. What are they thinking! I'd rather have too much information rather than not enough (as long as it is organized well)
[This message has been edited by Dissident Aggressor (edited December 06, 2000).]

	07-12-2000 05:02									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yeah what's the use of a great manual when the game is useless. I got a downloaded copy and played it for 3 days then once evey month or two I play half of another game.

I'm just hoping I like CTP2 only 2 more days

I didn't actually read the civ2 manual until about 2 Years after I got the game. There wasn't really diffderent from civ that you couldn't figure out in about five minutes.(BTW thats how I only found out two months ago that WE LOVE THE ____ DAY's actually increased growth doh!)

------------------
" mind over body "

	07-12-2000 06:42									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Manuals are an advantage, and should be included in these kind of games. Regular Civ always had one

	07-12-2000 20:18									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What's a manual? I would love to see a real manual for not only CTP2, but every other program as well. It took me several days to figure out how to activate the MAD feature in CTP2 since the only documentation was a quick description of the "set-target" order in the Great Library.

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The Electronic Hobbit

	08-12-2000 03:00									#17
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yeah, I'm finding its a really 'Great' library

	08-12-2000 05:38									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I love it!

I've already made 2 or 3 posts elsewhere critisizing the manual (or lack therof). Now I have somewhere to do it!

I tend to agree that it's just a way to make an extra few buck off their 'loyal' customers.. (or anyone who hasn't played ctpI. The game was a fair price. It's only $42 Canadian where I am. Activision/Firaxis/whoever take note; I'd have rather paid a few bucks more and gotten a decent manual. If they really wanted to, they coulda made CTPII and CTPII:Lite versions. (with and without manuals.)

Man. Add to the fact that I'm not terribly impressed with the game so far (a topic for another thread) and they're really not giving me much reason not to have gotten a friend to just make me a copy.

I extend my kudos to Firaxis as well. That SMAC manual was GORGEOUS. This little waste of paper doesn't deserve to call itself a manual.

	08-12-2000 19:46									#19
	Suffering from ads?

I don't even need a hard copy. Just put a complete manual on the CD. That would help cut production cost a little.

	08-12-2000 21:14									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Any game of considerable complexity is certainly enhanced by having a well structured accurate manual accompanying it. The difficulty is that to achieve this aim, the entire structure of the game MUST be finalised months before publication to allow the manual to be written properly. These days it appears to be more often the case that game features and parameters are subject to review and replacement up to a few days before going gold. That is tantamount to guaranteeing that any in-depth manual will contain important errata by the time of release which was accurate when it goes to print. Many 3rd party strategy guides also suffer from this fault.

	09-12-2000 07:05									#21
	Inflate your Upload Space

a) Errata we can deal with. Errors are going to happen exactly for the reason you describe; Things change at the last minute.

b) Some 3rd party strat. guides are just as bad, because they're the result of marketing agreements between the companies specifically so that the 3rd party can get their strag guide out shortly after the release of the game. This is ESPECIALLY prevailent in the console world.

But neither of those are an excuse. As much as I prefer a paper manual, the easy way is to include an electronic manual or exhaustive 'integrated help' (even more so than the 'datalinks' in SMAC, and FAR more so than the great library in CTP2).

If a patch comes out, just PATCH THE INTEGRATED HELP to include earlier errata, as well as changes made in the patch.

I can't think of an excuse for making a game and not providing instructions on how to play it.

	10-12-2000 14:49									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I disagree Grumbold. It is not that hard to do do print orders.

And the way to write a good manual is to have an evolving draft. This will actually help the design process as well as making a good manual.