26-12-1999 21:17									#1
	Battleships and Carriers Got spare money?

Civilopedia says that Aircraft Carriers ended the reign of the ferocious Battleships, well, I suppose they didn't. And the AI thinks same I believe. :-)


I have never seen a computer player using dozens of carriers, but they love battleships -like me-. A vet Battleship can even sometimes bring down those Stealth Bomber units, as efficiently as AEGIS Cruisers. But Carriers are both expensive and air units are not as powerful as the units I counted above.


Is there anyone who uses the aircraft carriers to carry fighters and bombers? - not nukes(oophs, AI usually carries nukes with subs, I forgot). They may be a good transport, but no more.

	26-12-1999 21:30									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The only navy I ever use consists of Transports to carry my Howitzers to other continents. Earlier I also use Triremes, Caravels and Galleons to transport my Diplomats, Settlers and Caravans.

	26-12-1999 21:44									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Paul,

Strange... In my last game, I had a navy consisting 13 battleships, 2 carriers, 23 AEGIS cruisers, 11 subs and 19 destroyers.


Sounds nice, isn't it? But I'm using only some destroyer to patrol and 3 battleships for security near the coast of my capital. The others wait in the port.


Well, I think mine is just another strategy to make the game more enjoyable. Everyday you learn something, eh?


Hey, wait a moment. Did you count Transports in the navy?(and the only type of ship in your navy) But who will escort them then? Fighters??

Navy is just another important part of the army. Not a kind of transport, I suppose.

	27-12-1999 02:29									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Paul, you don't even have a spy amongst those manned robots? Or a beach head engineer to give the landed howitzers their full two turns?

Yeah, I'm not much for navies either. But sometimes I'll escort the transports with an Aegis and if I can manage, a bomber--all one stack. I hate to lose a transport full of Howitzers to a sneak attack.

Aurelius

	27-12-1999 03:05									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I wiil have the occasional spy or engineer on board, but there is no need for protection. The continents are always close enough to allow your tranport to reach the next continent in one turn.

	27-12-1999 03:50									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I use a large map most of the time (not in OCC of course But I find the distances a bit perilous and especially so given the AI's tendency to build tons of ships--'AndreLike'. But given this, I do enjoy the thrill of sneaking a boat load of killer units unescorted on occasion.

	27-12-1999 04:02									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The AI, has no clue how to use aircraft carriers. As a result, they very very rarely build them. I have given a few to the AI to see how it would use them. They will attack coastal cities with them(it was hilarious.) Further proof that the AI doesn't know how to use them. Of course, since their bombers can stay aloft indefinately, why do they need carriers.

RAH

	27-12-1999 04:19									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

hmm well the ai will use massive amounts of cruise missles on my battleships and carriers effectively rendering the useless. (I usually don't let them build up to missles, but sometimes they are on a far away continent). So when I research rocketry I build massive amounts of aegis cruisers- fairly cheap and can bombard cities decently if there is no coastal fortress. The ai never uses missles on cruisers and transports in my games.

Of course I like lots of navy ships since I used to be in the navy. I try to have a combined force. But I rarely build and use subs. They are worthless. The only subs I will build is my own ballistic sub design. I never build destroyer either, cruisers are right after them anyways.
[This message has been edited by Puaxant Tuvip (edited December 26, 1999).]

	27-12-1999 06:02									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

We were playing the WWII scenario and I would put one battleship out to sea with 5 Aegis Cruisers on the stack. The next turn over 50 cruise missles attacked that stack. I went back and checked and some cities that fired were technically out of range. (More AI cheats.) Thanks to vet status, the stack survived. It turned out to be a good way to divert AI production. They immediately started replacing their stockpile. So I would provide a target every 10 turns or so. Watching 50 cruise missles inbound is also very entertaining.

RAH

	27-12-1999 06:09									#10
	Suffering from ads?

I'm not a big builder of cruise missiles. I do build them sometimes for special cases but for the most part they are not powerful enough and cost to much. Maybe I'd build more if you could target city improvments.

	27-12-1999 06:10									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't mind it if it takes like 5 missles to sink my batttleship. That is definately worth the waste of ai production. But sometimes they get lucky and get it with 2 missles.

	27-12-1999 07:20									#12
	Support Apolyton

I hate having a battle ship sunk. They take a little while to build but longer to move to the part of the world you want them in. I like building airbases on small islands to extend the range of my airforce. Than I keep bombers over my battle ships to protect them (nice against subs also).

	27-12-1999 08:13									#13
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Carriers in civ1 were great- because back then bombers could "pillage" terrain. I used to cripple the production of entire empires with 2 carriers with 7 bombers each (plus 1 fighter) by "pillaging" mines and rr's. Bombers aren't too useful in civ2, so I rarely build carriers. I usually dont' bother with too many planes at all except fighters for defense and stealth fighters for offense/defense.

As for missiles, I use them in rare circumstances. To sink loaded enemy transports which no other unit can react to fast enough, or en masse to empty an enemy city with nukes in it.

------------------
Theben
Co-Moderator of the Civ3 Forums

	27-12-1999 09:14									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hey Theban,

Do you ever use bombers in OCC? I find them pretty useful as I have to deal with powerful allies around 1920. It pays to have a few fortressed alpine troops in mountains with a Bomber fortified. The AI can't figure out how to get by

I like bombers as they defend the stack. But in the spirit of this thread, I NEVER build aircraft carriers. I once had a carrier attacked by some planes/bombers and it sunk with a couple fighter on board. I think the fighters should be allowed to scramble. (maybe they can but the aircraft carrier took defensive precedence.)

Aurelius.

	27-12-1999 20:04									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't remember the outcome on the bomber stack in our OCC voting. Anyway, you can do fine without bombers. I use those shields for more important things (like freights) instead.

My navy consists only of transport vessels of all kinds. There are exceptions like The Super Ironclad.

Carolus

	28-12-1999 00:31									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Super? Yes, that's a good point. Super ironclad, the best vessel of its time. Cool.

If only it could carry land units. Dah!

	28-12-1999 02:22									#17
	Support Apolyton

Hey Carolus Rex,

My OCC strategy is out of need, unfortunately. But I will say that I already have the Freight for the launch (not for appollo though arg.) My coffers are usually very low at the point of developing Apollo. But my enemy AI's are way too advanced to ignore. So I use the bomber tactic before I develope Apollo. I got to. the rivals have howitzers about the time I get my 15th structure. And howitzers can't be ignored and I dare not stop production of SS parts.

Right now, my philosophy in OCC is "Win baby Win." With this done, I can try and break the 1900 barrier. (btw, I have never had the fortune of getting monarchy early! I'm not sure how to ignore the first contacts request for science trade while working toward monarchy...I always feel compelled to trade science as I want to make friends or demand tribute--kind of frustrating.)

Anyone taking up OCC has got to read Paul's guide. And in it, he says that the 'invisible folks' voted approval of bombers and stacking. I can see the 'cheat' in it though--AI can't figure it out.

So what is the super ironclad? I would have called it the Aegis, but you might mean battleship. I like the Ageis in my One City with Sam.

My last game was done without a port. I won but it was hard. (1954) I had alot of mountains to terraform as well. It was getting kind of late in the game to found a city and I had to choose river and one whale and wine and wheat oh...and buffalo on a river! I had about 5 mountains with no good gold or iron! Atleast it was a good defensive position. By 1850, I had the thing plastered with fortresses. Then the great reduction to hills commenced. The game was fun. Tight. Managed three wars with two allies. And at the right moment, I said 'no' to the science jealous allies--then it was 5 wars

Thanks, Ol' Chit Chat Aurelius!

	28-12-1999 04:26									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The AI is a little better than you think. At least handling this stacked formation. I sometimes build these 'battle group' fleets. http://www.i2k.com/~density/fleet.jpg

The carrier in the center can carry a large number of planes. I've had 50+ aircraft on that one carrier. This setup does take a minute or two to move but it's tough. Parking 30 stealth fighters off the coast is neat. This picture was made in cheat mode. You'd probably want the AEGIS ships vet. There are 8 more bombers on the carrier that replace the bombers on -stack- duty. You can even use old bombers for this. Against a king or better AI you would also probably want more than one ship per sqaure as the AI will hammer away on one sqaure only with stealth fighters. I've lost a few of these groups as the AI one time attacked with 60+ planes. It finally opened a hole and nuked the carrier. It happens. For the most part this is a kick ass formation. I'd hate to move this in a MP game!!!

	28-12-1999 05:37									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The ai nuked a ship? I have never seen that happen. Is it possible they do a cost analysis of the potential kills?

	28-12-1999 06:06									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I was wondering about that because I was surpirse at the number of stealth fighters it used to open up a hole. But yes, seen it 2 times. Believe me, I cried the first time... so many units lost.

another thing the AI does is surround the entire battle group with 20-30 cruise missiles. You need stealth fighters to clear them out.
[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited December 27, 1999).]

	28-12-1999 21:50									#21
	Suffering from ads?

Aurelius ("the golden man", right?),

I think it's safe to refuse trading techs before monarchy. The AI rarely declares war on me for declining, especially if I have a couple of NONE units to flex my muscles with.

The Super Ironclad is a vet ironclad with 7 movement points (Lighthouse and Magellan's). In the post-gunpowder/pre-conscription era when musceteers behind walls rule, an armada of Super Ironclads is the way to go.

Carolus

	29-12-1999 00:51									#22
	Suffering from ads?

Nuclear weapons are actually my preferred form of coastal defense, supplemented with stealth fighters and bombers. If the target in question is a Battleship, Carrier, or AEGIS crusier, or any kind of stack, while a Nuke is costly, it is the most reliable way to ensure that a target gets taken out. Water seems to be immune to pollution anyway. With a range of 16 squares, nukes are also ideal for reconnaisance. For the smaller ships, stealth fighters are a good way to take them out.

	29-12-1999 03:50									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ah Carolus Rex,

Sometimes a bit of circumspection is smart. A very hasty pen-name, Aurelius. Atleast I didn't put Marcus in front. That would have been like Suraman (sp?), from Lord of the Rings, donning white robes and 'the wise'. But in civ, I take the peaceful route and feed the people well (not via food caravan trick though.) Still, in this game, I can't remember a campaign in which I have not been a tyrant at one point.

Carolus, I like the classics, though I plead innocence through ignorance on the matter. I'm sure AU is not accidental in Aurelius. Quite awhile ago, in d&d days, I had a character named Aurelius. He was anything but golden

And that Aurelius was more predisposed to speaking Orc than, "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears.... [another Mar[k] of course!]"

But if I may Caroluslly say, of C., I know less?

A. (I'd rather cherish the pirite in my coffers than be confused for someone I am not but I do love the name--all three!)

(Favorite Quote of the day:

This was the most unkindest cut of all,
For when the noble Caesar saw him stab, Ingratitude, more strong than traitors' arms, Quite vanquished him....--where did Shakespeare get this stuff! )

	02-01-2000 10:30									#24
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I enjoy Maintaining a large Navy.
I find you can almost entirely prevent any enemy from invading your lands with a gigantic fleet.
I mix it up, 6-8 battleships, 10-15 Cruisers and Destroyers, 5 Carriers, 10 transports and lots of subs(cruise missles).
I generally haven't built too many AGEIS Cruisers, I'll have to try them out.

Carriers are essential. Say you shore bombard a city and land in a few transports. You move your Howies across their railroads in a stunning Blitz. I'll use carriers offshore to mop up partisans that will pillage the squares they occupy. I'll rush build an airport in a central city of my invasion and just move my planes from there. The Carriers are great as they provide a great number of powerful srtikes deep behind enemy lines. You still have to worry about fighters, but if they only have a few, your vet. bombers will eventually prevail because of the nearby airport.

Navy is essential. It is part of the Modern War Triad. Plus it's fun to rule the seas, nothing gives me more satisfaction than sinking a fat transport full of enemy troops bound for my homeland.

	02-01-2000 02:44									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I build a large navy as well. But I'd recommend AEGIS cruisers. They are amazingly cheap and fairly strong at coastal bombardments (not as much as battleships of course), and they don't get any cruise missles or aircraft launched against them.

	03-01-2000 18:00									#26
	Full PM-box? Change here!

A big navy is not necessary in CivII. All you really need are some Transports and a few AEGIS to escort them. The best tactic to deal with the AI's navy is too simply avoid and go around them.

While Battleships and Carriers seem glamorous, there isn't a more pathetic sight than watching them spend spend 6 turns limping back to port at speed 2 after an attack.

Once you can build Coastal Fortresses, the AI's navy will never seriously bother your cities again. If the AI's navy hangs around your coast too much, Cruise Missiles take care of 'em except for AEGIS of course. For AI AEGIS, I will sometimes build a couple Subs, leave them in my port cities and wait for the AEGIS to get close enough.