04-01-2000 09:14									#1
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I'm not sure if this will work, but here it'll go:

Get to Writing as soon as possilbe. Then build a bunch of diplomats (a large number of cities can handle this). Use these diplos to scout around to find other civs. During this time, set Tax rate to as max as possible. Use this money to bribe barbarian units to get a good military fast.

One you find civs with these diplos, have them deliver havoc. Establish embassy first, then steal tech and finally bribe the city. Stolen tech will make up for low science rate, and since the cities are small they should be cheap to bribe.

If you wait too long on this, perhaps waiting for the spy, you won't be able to bribe their units (for barbarians are more rare later on) and their cities cause of Democracy. Will the above stratagy work to get your civ going?

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	04-01-2000 18:17									#2
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The basic idea works, but there are a couple of things that improve this strategy (all IMHO of course).

i) Demand tribute instead of setting taxes to max. This gives you a lot more gold, especially early on.

ii) Another reason for keeping taxes low and the science rate high is that diplos can't choose the desired tech to steal. So you never know what you get. Doing your own research is never wrong.

iii) I wouldn't establish an embassy first, then steal a tech to finally bribe the city. I would do the exact opposite, bribe the city first.

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited January 04, 2000).]

	05-01-2000 10:51									#3
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Carolus -

I agree with the establishing an embassy, but why not steal a tech (as long as you have more than one diplomat)?

I would also suggest that small (3 or less pop) cities probably aren't worth bribing and it might be easier just to elephant stomp them (assuming you have enough military units).

	05-01-2000 01:38									#4
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I assume that nobody uses a diplomat to just investigate a city. At that early stage, I figure the loss of the diplomat is more than I gain in knowing the status of the city for that moment in time. Later with spys, and no cost to investigate, except for the 1/3 move point deduction, I have spys looking in the target cities often to keep alert to their building progress, and how many strong defenders they have inside.

What do others do with diplomats? Do you use them to investigate. My preference would be to bribe, then to establish an embassy, then maybe to steal tech, if the city is too costly to bribe, and I have an embassy. Also, if I'm at war already and I see from the intelligence screen that they have just or will soon complete a tech that I can use, then I'll sure send a Dip to steal it.

	05-01-2000 02:56									#5
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The only time I use dips to investigat is if I absolutely need to know what is in the city (very rarely) or if there are city walls and I need to know the number and type of defenders to know if I have a chance of taking the city. Before explorers I use them for exploring and tipping huts.

	05-01-2000 03:06									#6
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I'm with poppawoppa here. Dips just bribe, scout and hut poppa. I dont't think I've ever stolen an advance instead of bribing and getting both the tech and the city. I haven't played a very early bribe game before like Seafroggy posted, but I think it would be very successful. With Monarchy, Writing, and Bronze, you could set run taxes at 70% and buy a GL worth of advances while getting into the AI's backyard. With phalanxes defending, a counter attacking horse, archer, or chariot and a wall on the way, the AI would be hard pressed to deal with this.

	05-01-2000 04:54									#7
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crowatbitemedotcom,

I don't mind establishing embassies. And because you get a tech on the side when you bribe a city, I like that order better than the other way around.

Carolus

	05-01-2000 05:06									#8
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Why not steal a tech then bribe the city and get another tech?Takes 2 dips but you get 2 techs and maybe a little gold.

	05-01-2000 05:25									#9
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Smash -

Why not just bribe two cities? Granted, if you don't have the gold you could steal the techs, but if you do have the gold, bribe away, i say.

	05-01-2000 19:14									#10
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I agree. I am a dip/spy junkie and I mainly use dips to bribe and to establish embassies with one or two other civs in the early game. I'm bound to acquire either Marco's or UN sometime in the game, whether it be by building them or taking them by force, so I will concentrate the early dip game to bribing. I usually don't bother stealing until late in the game when there is a civ I've been distant from and they have something I need for some unit upgrades. But by then, I'm still bribing and getting techs that way anyway.

Current game: (Emp., Med. map, Raging, 7 civs) I have small (8 cities) civ and am ahead in tech. I'm at the end of a large continent and the Spanish and Greeks have been jealous since the beginning of time and they like to start little battles now and again. I know that I won't be able to control them once Space Flight comes around since they would steal it and use their 30 cities each to beat me to AC. So I switch to Dem., get some military techs and money, build a bunch of dips, switch to Fundy, and go to war. My dips are upgraded to spys thanks to Leo's and I go bribing and fighting with a bunch of spys and a boatload of money. My point - Leo's is great for upgrading dips (saves a lot of money and production) and because there is no support needed for them, dips/spys are the most valuable unit in the game, IMHO, especially in a Democracy.

	05-01-2000 20:48									#11
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You touch on a critical aspect of diplomats and spies, but there is one more thing you should do with these units--Bribe AI Settlers! If you bribe a settler unit that is closer to an enemy city than yours, the settle will revert to a "NONE" home base for support so you can have it running around the entire game for FREE!!! This really helps in the early stages since settler support can really stifle a city's growth. Try it, you'll love it...!

	05-01-2000 23:56									#12
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inca911 ..... you bring up good points .... however bribing an ai or opponents settler is one of the most expensive units to bribe and can be a difficult thing to do if you dont' have early capital

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	06-01-2000 01:36									#13
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Good idea, Inca, but I'm usually at war with those civs that have settlers near and even when upgraded they wouldn't survive very long in the heat of a battlezone. I'd rather take the money and buy a distant city. I'll have to use that strategy sometime, though, and see if I can make it work for me.

War4ever: I see quite a few of your posts on these boards and was wondering how much you use dips/spys during your warmongering. Do these units make war too easy for you?

	06-01-2000 02:10									#14
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Bohlen...... i didn't used to use dips very often but do alot more ever since i took up Multiplaying... against the ai i just took things by brute force.... playing online where i used to lose my first few games, i had raw potential.... now i am a diamond although i still make mistakes and lose a few games.... noone is perfect

Dips are powerfull and i still need to learn to use them more frequently...
Although the other day i went on a huge dip spree and my opponent was furious..... i stole like 5 techs and bribed so many units that he thought my tactics were unfair and berated me for it......

I guess he forgot that the best strategy for civ is to always change your tactics hehe

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	06-01-2000 02:47									#15
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Unfair tactics? Bah! Using spies is very important for overall game strategy. Do most MP players frown on bribing and stealing techs?

	06-01-2000 04:06									#16
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Bohlen i agree with you and most dont' frown on this sort of tactic..... although this poor chap hadn't played me in 6 months

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	06-01-2000 06:05									#17
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There are lots of advantages in early bribery. You get a fully functioning city instead of scorched earth or a city shell. It augments your civ and decreases your rival's power. Early bribery is cheaper. If you can extract tribute, it's wonderful; your treasury increases, and your victim's decreases, making it cheaper to bribe him. I like marco polo's, it is cheaper and easier to establish embassies than trying to deliver diplomats and spending 30 shields on eaqch one. The only drawback is having the funds. I like early fundamentalism(SOL) which generates much gold.