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Bluevoss
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Orlando, Florida
Dec 2000
time: 05:14
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I think this is another bug, one thats been under our noses all along.
Does anyone ever get any unhappyness for population size? I never see it at all. In fact, I raised my RIOT_LEVEL to 75 just to keep things rolling - turns out that only smaller cities rioted - once they got a shrine, they were pretty immune.
Shouldn't there be a negative influence for big populations? After all, whats the whole point of the theater and the arena, anyway?
I'm playing a medium game, and I have a city that is size 17. Now, Alpha Wolf and I were emailing back and forth, and he pointed out the lines in DBDiff that read (for medium games)....
BIG_CITY_SCALE 1.0 #how much each unhappy person matters
BIG_CITY_OFFSET 5 #population above this size are unhappy
Doing the math, a size 17 city should have (17-5)*1.0 or 12 unhappy ratings. Mine is currently popping at about 82, and I'm working people hard and not paying poop. I see no indication at all for negative population mods in the status area of the city. All I have is plusses for buildings and wonders.
I even set the BIG_CITY_SCALE to 5.0, which should have turned my city into riotpoluza, but nothing. No changes seemed to make any difference at all.
Is this something ELSE that isn't working? Does anyone else see this? Or is there some toggle somewhere I need to set to let population have negative effects.
Otherwise, why build forums and theaters - for looks?
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Bluevoss-
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wysiwyg
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Sandy, UT
Nov 2000
time: 05:14
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You probably don't have pollution turned on. This is a major factor in happiness.
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Bluevoss
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Orlando, Florida
Dec 2000
time: 05:14
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Oh, but I DO have polution turned on. I even have a few negative faces becuase of it.
However, I don't really get cities above 20-25 before I get the Mill building. This means that polution does not become a factor until the just-pre-industrial age. And this means that theaters and arenas are pointless to install until you get ready to build the mill. So build the mill first, and then put in all those happy buildings before people start getting pissed about polution.
Which is backwards. A BALANCED game would have population problems all through history. Small BC cities still had population problems - they tended to be wallled and everyone wanted to be inside rather than out. So, if anything, populations were MORE compressed than now. So it should be a real concern (in a realistic game) to need to put in happy buildings long before polution became a problem.
Like I said elsewhere, there is code in the DBDiff file that supports the fact that they intended to have negative aspects for population, which would have forced the earlier use of happy buildings and entertainers.
Next time you are standing in a long line at the post office, think about how much irritation you feel at that moment is due to pollution.
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Bluevoss-
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wheathin
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Too true, BV.
I notice that aside from a little unhappiness from capitol distance if I found a new city too far away (a shrine is usually enough to control it), I never worry about it. I just build the happiness improvements to get the cities to start celebrating and get the growth bonus. I'm not sure what the bonus is, but dammit it better be there!
I noted in another thread a few weeks ago that the unhappiness for slider abuse is also different from CtP. You get -1 *total* for moving a slider one notch, no matter the size of the city. In CtP it was -1 *per population point* - a much better system, IMHO.
So we have cities that grow rapidly in any terrain, that do not get progressively unhappy as they get larger (except for pollution), and which can be abused by manipulation of the wage/food/work sliders without penalty. No wonder the game seems rather simple...
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Bluevoss
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Orlando, Florida
Dec 2000
time: 05:14
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Wheathin,
Thank you, thank you. Finally, someone sees what I'm talking about ("I'm not mad! I'm not mad!").
Yes, you are exactly right - Cities just grow, regardless of terrain or attention. If you want, you can run your sliders up and there should not be any problems. In fact, most cities I found (especially later), I keep a good load of PW for, so when they go in, they instantly have a lot of fields and nets going. That way, they are well on their way without any effort from me.
If you look at how the game was supposed to work (check out the formulas in the first entry of this thread), population would really become a problem as you got up to 20-30. That means, by the mid-late roman era, you would be having to deal with it. To me, that feels acceptable. Futher, you would really have to start adding entertainers to keep cities happy. Again, that would be great, since it would slow city growth. (Think about the city you live in - what percent of the population are "entertainers". This counts convience store clerks, office workers, essentually anyone who provides goods and sevices to keep people happy. 30%? 50%) And the best thing about huge cities with massive amounts of effort placed in services is that pillaging is then a real serious deal.
Oh well - if only those two values in DBDiff worked as advertised.
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Bluevoss-
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Floris O
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Voorschoten, Holland
Dec 2000
time: 05:14
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I must say that it seems that it wouldn't matter whether happiness were there or not. After I built a few happiness buildings, people started celebrating almost every turn, and I could do anything I want. Before that to, anyway.
In one game, the most happy city was one I conquered from a civilization very far from the capitol. There was not much food, the city was a bit isolated, and I rushed in there with 8 tanks and 4 marines, disturbing their daily routine and I could care less about the welfare of the people there. Well, I would be 87% happy to if I were in their position... 
[This message has been edited by Floris O (edited January 10, 2001).]
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Bluevoss
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Orlando, Florida
Dec 2000
time: 05:14
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Oh yeah - thats the old trick - Roll into the enemy town square, line up your men with machine guns cocked, lower the tank cannons, and ask (through a bad interpretor)...
"Any complaints?"
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Bluevoss-
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08-01-2001 10:43
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