02-01-2000 23:52									#1
	Perfect Invasion Full PM-box? Change here!

An attack that could NEVER be defended consists of...

20% Tanks

10% Riflemen

30% Marines

5 % Submarines

3% Settlers to build forts


That attack works best for me.

------------------
HaHaHaHaHa!
The Darklord-Darth Ryan

	03-01-2000 00:40									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Interesting...here are the traditional, Deity level modern-era attacks...

8 howitzers, 1 transport.

2 engineers, 1 mech inf, 5 howitzers, 1 transport.

at least 5 bombers, transport with 8 armor.

or, the rarely seen, seldom used Grand Navy of Death and Destruction. transport with 8 armor, at least 6 battleships, 3 aegis. If the computer is BS big and powerful, 6 aegis.

All these vets of course, and against Democracies, fundies, rich commies.

Against any retarded primitive civs in the modern era...7 spies poisoning wells, 1 bribes, 1 transport.

Obviously these kind o big armies require massive shields, which is why you should always maximize taxes when you discover industrialization and don't set them back to science until all your larger-than-8 cities have factories bought in them.

	03-01-2000 00:41									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Looking at your post...What on earth are you doing using marines?!!

	03-01-2000 03:40									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I agree with seeker, marines are good for 1 thing, taking coastal cities. Use Mech Inf

------------------
Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

	03-01-2000 05:06									#5
	Got spare money?

Genghis Al..... i disagree.... marines are useless unless against primitive civs.... amphibious assaults just arenmt the hype... much easier ways to take a city... most marine attacks fail against rifleman and sometimes against musketeers even..... imo they are a wasted commodity.

------------------
They call me Mr. Fierce

	03-01-2000 07:22									#6
	Tired of ads?

I by no means mean using them to "attack" coastal cities, just occupy. I know marines can't fight. At all. Ever.

------------------
Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

	03-01-2000 07:37									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I agree about marines. Although I raise the attack strength and cost of marines in my games to make them more useful. Although most of the time I still use naval or air bombardment and just drop a howitzer in coastal or island cities.

	03-01-2000 20:19									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Why increase the cost? They're bad enough as it is. Make them 10/5/1 for the same cost, or keep them the same and give them 2 moves.

	04-01-2000 10:17									#9
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Boys, against primative civs, nothing works better than costal bombardment. 1 Transport full of whichever units you like, and 3-5 battleships can really open the entire enemy coast up for a fullscale invasion.
Even if they have a costal fortress, I will shore bombard, because if I'm building a fleet of battleships there will surely be reinforcements arriving soon.
Marines- to defend before the develop. of Labor Union. That is unless i'm poor and have to use alpines...

	05-01-2000 03:14									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My attack is unstopable,HaHaHaHaHa!!

------------------
HaHaHaHaHa!
The Darklord-Darth Ryan

	05-01-2000 03:31									#11
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I am curious as to why you only use a 68% attack force. And what in god's green earth are the Riflemen and Marines doing?

	05-01-2000 03:53									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I must agree with Field Marshall Klesh. If one has control of the seas it becomes less and less important how strong your actual battle group is as long as you can provide coastal support when it is required.
And it does not only work against primitive civs, also that is where it works best, against civs at the same tech level it is also helpfull.

Build a large fleet of Battleships, cruisers or AEGIS, and fast destroyers to protect the battleship from subs and there will be hardly anything that can stop you. If then you add one or two carriers full of bombers and fighters...

Then you can take out even the largest opponent with minimal use of land forces. That is what I am doing at the moment in my latest game. I have cruisers and destroyers to conquer, take cities with a bit of help from artilery and Cavalary, and defend them against counter-attacks. The battleships keep the enemy fleet busy and give coastal support when needed.
I can just say that one city is falling after the other to my navy.

	05-01-2000 05:51									#13
	Tired of ads?

I've been thinking lately....

Can't subs be kind of useful? Obviously they can't be used for a shore bombardment, but i think they can be used in some instances.

I look at it this way. If you get Magellan's Expedition, and a vet sub, now you've got a 15-4-5 beast waiting to take someone out. Leave it in a corner and wait for the AI transports to come near. And wouldn't that theoretically be strong enough to beat a non-vet Battleship? I am going to experiment using these in my current game, seeing as i am about to finish M.E.

------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

	05-01-2000 06:10									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You are right. They can be very useful in sinking enemy transports. Especially since they don't see them coming.

Also I like to hunt down battleships with them because I do not want to take the risk of loosing one myself. 2 or 3 subs to hunt one battleship usualy works very good. And they never see them coming, too.
Furthermore, subs can be replaced far easier than a battleship and additionally you can ship around your misiles and nukes with them.

So, their "main tasks" are:
1) Disrupting the enemy's ability to transport troops savely.
2) Hunt down battleships which could endanger your coastal operations.
3) Take your missiles and nukes where they are needed without being discovered.

Did I forget anything?

	05-01-2000 06:55									#15
	Suffering from ads?

That the ai knows exactly where every one of your subs is and they have no "stealth" as a result.

I have never lost anything to a sub in MP.Not yet anyhow.

	05-01-2000 07:04									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Smash -

You can still use a sub's strength and relatively cheap cost to your advantage though.

Another way to use them might be to build some destroyers to almost bait the AI into attacking you, and with sub's near by you could just take them out. quite a stretch, i know, and a large waste of units. But i think a sub is a lot cheaper than building a battleship or even a cruiser. Park it in the middle of a sealane and watch the kills pile up.

------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

	05-01-2000 10:18									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hendrik,

I think the ai can't see your sub, but CAN see the nukes or cruise missiles inside!
which sucks by the way.
If you notice at the end of moving a sub with sleeping missiles, the missles overlap the sub when it's move points are up.

I think this was mentioned in another thread I've read here... try it out

	05-01-2000 17:12									#18
	Got spare money?

when the end-game (~modernday tech) starts and there's a continent that I don't yet have a bridgehead on (which meens there's at least 1 ocean that I can't ignore), I often use SSN like units ... iow, a sub with 3 to 5 crs msls and 1 or 2 nukes (if MP hasn't been build ... add 2 or 3 crs msls).

Now, when 2 or 3 of those bastards hit the contested ocean ... WATCH OUT.

I once played a game like this against the french-english aliance, their combined fleet outnumbered me something like 15 to 1.
Then, one turn, my 3 SSNs (plus 2 landbased nukes) took out (best guess) ~8 Battleships, ~8 AEGIS, ~14 cruisers, ~?? destroyers (tons of em), 2 or 3 transports (only half full) and 2 carriers (almost empty)

ok, there were probably douzens of better ways to defeat the alliance fleet, but this one was by far the most fun!

	05-01-2000 19:13									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

And I was so enjoying myself that the AI couldn't see me coming. Anyway, they are still useful.

However, having a few missiles on them opens other wonderfull possibilities as Fiji pointed out. Also if you have to happen a carrier full with bombers and fighter-plains it can prove to be the best naval weapon there is. I once took out the entire Spanish and Roman fleet with two carrier task forces.
They did have an escort of about 15 other ships though...
[This message has been edited by Hendrik the Great (edited January 05, 2000).]

	06-01-2000 02:14									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ok I built some subs last night in a single player game and yes,the ai is good at putting their ships where they can be sunk.I parked a few here and there and they have earned their keep with tonnage sent to the depths.

I would say you definetly want the extra movement of Magellan's

	06-01-2000 04:20									#21
	Got spare money?

Smash -

Like I said before, I have to agree that Magellan's is a definite must for using subs. The can't get away on the same turn if you don't have it.

Hendrik -

In the few games which i have played on the world map i have found using carriers rather helpful. If you are trying to invade S. America or Africa from an opposite continent, they make it much easier to safely move a few transports across the ocean. The air cover you get from the planes makes it a lot easier to take out opposing naval presence. But of course, using a million destroyers can work just as well.

------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

	06-01-2000 06:06									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, I'd definitely cross marines out.They're too weak for anything.And with the submarines, their great if you have nukes or cruise missiles as torpedoes in them.
[This message has been edited by jlmk (edited January 05, 2000).]

	07-01-2000 10:49									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Also, fusion power adds 1 more move point to the subs. which when combine dwith Magellan's is deadly.
I'd like to see 2 classes of subs though. An attack sub(pretty much the existing one) and a missile sub. the missle sub should get better def. rating as it becomes way too valuable with 3 or 4 nukes up in it to be sunk by an enemy bomber or AGEIS.
If I knew how to customize my own units (rules.txt right?) I'd try this, but I'm still trying to get all that stuff straight.

	06-01-2000 23:00									#24
	Put an end to popups!

The perfect invasion is the invasion that catches your enemy by complete surprise.

Here's my current units.gif (I've modified the rules.txt to use these units). The AI uses most of them pretty good. I'm still playing around with some numbers and science to get the units. but...
http://www.i2k.com/~density/units.jpg

Spy Plane, nil, 1, 36.,2, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 22,0, 6, U3, 000000000000011
Super Carrier,nil, 2, 8.,0, 2a,18d, 2h,1f, 42,0, 2, Las, 000000010000001
Adv MI Unit, nil, 0, 4.,0, 7a,8d, 3h,1f, 6,0, 1, Sup, 000000000000000
SEAL Unit, nil, 0, 2.,0, 16a,2d, 5h,1f, 24,0, 0, X2, 000001000000111
Sea Wolf, nil, 2, 6.,0, 18a,9d, 4h,2f, 16,0, 5, X1, 110000000001001
Mobile SAM, nil, 0, 2.,0, 1a,5d, 2h,2f, 9,0, 1, X2, 010000000000000
Jet fighter, nil, 1, 12.,1, 7a,3d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 3, U2, 000000000010001
Adv Armor, nil, 0, 4.,0, 12a,6d, 4h,2f, 12,0, 0, X1, 000000000000001
Rocket Lch, nil, 0, 1.,0, 15a,1d, 3h,1f, 14,0, 0, Sup, 000000001000000
Tomahack, nil, 1, 18.,1, 24a,0d, 2h,4f, 8,0, 0, U3, 001000000000000
Diplomat, nil, 0, 1.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 3,0, 6, Esp, 000000000000011


; 000000000000001 = Two space visibility
; 000000000000010 = Ignore zones of control
; 000000000000100 = Can make amphibious assaults
; 000000000001000 = Submarine advantages/disadvantages
; 000000000010000 = Can attack air units (fighter)
; 000000000100000 = Ship must stay near land (trireme)
; 000000001000000 = Negates city walls (howitzer)
; 000000010000000 = Can carry air units (carrier)
; 000000100000000 = Can make paradrops
; 000001000000000 = Alpine (treats all squares as road)
; 000010000000000 = x2 on defense versus horse (pikemen)
; 000100000000000 = Free support for fundamentalism (fanatics)
; 001000000000000 = Destroyed after attacking (missiles)
; 010000000000000 = x2 on defense versus air (AEGIS)
; 100000000000000 = Unit can spot submarines
;


[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited January 06, 2000).]