20-12-1999 03:25									#1
	First OCC Win -- City:3200bc AC:1968 Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

OCC rules! Well, having said that, I did get alot of mileage out of the 'Continental Challenge' and I'm looking forward to multiplayer. But for now, 1968 will be a year for me to remember--My ship from my one and only city, Carthage, arrived in Alpha Centauri. Damn that was hard!

After about nine or ten attempts, some better than others, I finally got hold of some important principles of the challenge. The most important one being the production of 'many many' freight. Got this idea and other ideas from this site of course!

The most exciting part of the game was how close HHH came to losing Carthage 2 or 3 turns after the launch. I couldn't appease my allies/enemies with science as they had nearly all the 5.9 year version of the space ship built lacking only the modules and Fusion. Talk about a tense 15 to 20 final years!

Anyway, it was fun. I'm intrigued and awed by the recent record arrival date of 1803, but I feel lucky to get a late year success. I do have a question or two:

Does anyone ever go for leonardo's Workshop? I found this useful in defending the mountain fortress three or four squares away with my 'nones'--they're hard to replace and the world is hostile.

And the other question concerns trade routes. How many trade routes can one establish? Is three the limit? I'm just getting use to the trade element of civ, but it seems very important in OCC.

Thanks, Junior Aurelius.

	20-12-1999 03:43									#2
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Congratulations!
I am not very big fan of OCC,but i did it once (1905 or so). Most irritiating thing in OCC are bloody advanced tribes. I remember one game where i had 3 whales and wino,3600bc i got my capital ready,few non-units,bronze,alpha,code of laws and next hut had an advanced tribe in it

	20-12-1999 03:45									#3
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Congrats!Sounds like a squeaker.

I use Paul's strategy, more or less,and his plan is for speed,speed speed,so there is no time for Leos.His ideas get you there before the ai is a threat to launch or attack.Although sometimes it not quite as exciting as your game.
As many trade routes as you have time for.I would say 3 mininum.I like my first set of caravans to arrive just as I've switched to Republic or researching philosophy or both.I'll build food caravans for later Spaceship disbanding if no commodities are available.

	20-12-1999 09:06									#4
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What difficulty level was this?



I tried this on diety and I got ruined. they built CO and Isaac's college. What do you build before you get trade?



Basically what are the finer points of playing like this?

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

	20-12-1999 10:00									#5
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here it is http://home.planet.nl/~belt0018/occ.htm

	20-12-1999 12:57									#6
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My 'first win' was on diety/small map (does anyone play on a large map?)

I had success in getting all of the important early year wonders: first Collosus, then copernicus, then Shakespeare and followed by Newton. But I had some real blunders in the game. I rush bought MC...meant to buy Darwin and forgot to switch the wonder--I screamed!
Another problem I run into is managing too many allies. I hear folks saying they get 3 allies--I'm lucky to get two. But when the two allies go to war, they want my civ to join them against the other ally. That's when I start giving away my science--gift-like. Sometimes this is bad timing.

Another suggestion I've used successfully is demanding tribute and requesting ally gifts. If I have two sciences to trade, I do one trade and on the second trade request, I say 'no' and then I 'request a gift'. They often comply and give me the second science for nothing. That way I have some science barter for later.

Smash's comments about Paul's 'speed speed speed' idea needs some elaboration I'm playing a game now and I'll forget about Leo. But I'm already at 1893's and not even mass production is developed--another squeaker if I'm lucky. My city is more isolated in this game. Tundra concerns: converting to desert first and then to plains and maybe to grassland. But I had a bird/whale/fish situation away from pesky allies--not a great location overall but 3600BC is okay.

One nice thing about OCC is the lack of maintenance in the game. Don't have to move units all over the place and in some large mapped games, I have nearly one hundred engineers working the land--arg.

Oh yeah, another pitfall in OCC with an ally is those annoying ally cities on the outskirts of your city resource squares. Nothing worse than seeing my city overlapping another cities resourses. I hate this! Any ideas?

Concerning smartfart's ideal starting position, that must have hurt. In such a game, won't OCC's stringent ethics allow you to disband via a rush bought settler if you forgot to save before entering the hut? Three whales and wine.....owww.

Thanks, Aurelius.

	20-12-1999 13:08									#7
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Smash has already answered some of your questions. I would like to add that you can only have the lasting benefits of three trade routes. If you establish more routes the new one may replace on older route. However, the one-time bonus certainly makes it worth to build a caravan when you get a new commodity.

Genghis Al, before trade you build Colossus, library and marketplace. Trade should be an early research goal after Bronze, Monarchy and Writing. After trade, whenever you have nothing to build just build caravans. If you have no trade commodities build food caravans to disband for your spaceships. If you are just one or two turns away from a new science you may also already start building something and then switch to what the new science allows you to build. You will already have some shields in the box and be able to rushbuy a turn earlier than if you would start on the turn you discover the science.

	20-12-1999 15:35									#8
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Thanks Paul,

I never see more than three trade routes in the city box and I was curious if I was doing something wrong. Yeah, I just got a couple late year freights delivering goods and got 900+ gold...that helps.

But I still don't have the ball in the cup.

Wow, I just saw your post with a log of the 1803 game events --"Space Flight 1100AD!" I'm missing something I appreciate Smash's comments about avoiding late year battles--I just don't know how yet.

Thanks, Aurelius.

	27-12-1999 06:32									#9
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I am i njust total awe of you guys I tried the OCC but always seem to fall too far behing the AI in Tech reserch, I even followed Pauls advice from his OCC record win. I am using the MPGold editoion does this make any diuference I have definaly noted that the AI are smarter than when I used to use the original Civ 2

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Rasputin The Mad Monk,
Ra Ra Rasputin, Lover of the Russian Queen

	28-12-1999 03:28									#10
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I wouldn't exactly say smarter but definetly more hostile.Alot more hostile

	01-01-2000 06:47									#11
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Smash i am using MGE for everything and with the 4whale game i cna't even crack the 1899 era..... ai is hostile although i win every game i play anywhere from 1829 -1960.... i get my trade off too... the Germans below me ... ie different continent and get good value for the first route but almost half that for the second.... and it is no better trading to my other rivals as they are all on the same continent and the value is even less than the german routes

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They call me Mr. Fierce

	07-01-2000 16:39									#12
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I had tried about 40 games to get decent 4 special location only 3 times! Of them, I never even got to launch playing by the rules the first time through. Even playing each several times the best I did was launch in 1998 (but was beaten to AC by two years).

I think you guys cheat!

I tried Sten's 4 whale game and didn't even get Philosophy first! The AIs were really uncooperative. I'll try the others later; maybe I'll have some luck.

	07-01-2000 23:44									#13
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Instead of restarting games to get specials, I will enable the cheat mode and make a couple of mods to the squares in the starting window to get some specials. Then turn off the cheat menu and start the game. I got tired of restarts...

	08-01-2000 05:32									#14
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oi!The purist will spend many hours and have many restarts looking for OCC spots.I have wandered many miles looking.Save yourself some time and use the cheat menu to make one.You never learn much or have much fun if you can't find a spot to "get started"

	09-01-2000 02:10									#15
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But then your results don't count, "officially."

I have occasionally used cheat to look for a 4 special location if I haven't found one by 3000. By then I've usually cleared a large area of huts, and I can just look near my settlers to see if a place is within reach. That hasn't worked either because most random maps simply don't have a defensible 4 special location.

I did manufacture a location just to see if I could get anywhere near Paul. Nope.

	09-01-2000 02:44									#16
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yes thats true they aren't official but I got a feeling that the only one that is going to break Paul's record is Paul himself.I hope I'm wrong.If someone does pull it off,Paul will just renew his efforts with a stronger resolve.

	09-01-2000 03:12									#17
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I find the unluckier positions fun to play. With no starting science and alot of jungle, I managed to win a game in 1965 the other day. The game was science slow for the AI's too.

Setting records is a frustrating endeavor, but it would be fun to see some competition at that highest level.

Has anyone thought about just starting an informal league and presenting a random OCC position--good or poor. This random position would be submitted on Mondays and would be completed by the following Monday. All 'informal' competitors would submit a science and improvement log. I think it would be fun to compare all our log dates. Also, some games might be very difficult to win PERIOD!

Of course there are different versions of the game and that would have to be included in the log. We might be able to draw some conclusions about the affect of different versions on OCC results.

But in the end, we'd all have a game to discuss contextually.

Aurelius.

	09-01-2000 13:23									#18
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Yeah, I don't mind having a so-so starting site, but you've got no chance without mucho trade. I suppose if I found a defensible site with 2 or 3 trade specials and lots of river.

One OCC game I played I started near a somewhat isolated corner with a whale, a gold, and rivers. The pattern fell on two grassland river tiles, so I had a decent chance of converting them and finding at least one silk/pheasant (one of each, as it turned out ). The only problem: the middle tile was jungle, so I had to irrigate it first. Whew. I enjoyed that challenge, but I wound up being too close to a beligerant neighbor whom I simply couldn't please even by giving it frequent tech and too much gold. The SOBs wiped me out by throwing massive waves of cavalry against my beleaguered and outnumbered Alpine defenders.

	09-01-2000 13:27									#19
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Oh I forgot, I like the informal competition idea. We could take turns submitting maps. Could be fun!

	09-01-2000 14:51									#20
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Hey Don don,

A very respectable name. The weekly OCC league game or communal game could be posted under a new topic weekly. I was thinking maybe it could be a random position starting in 4000BC with maybe nothing but swamp. In a horrible starting position, one would have to look around for a good spot. The game would have a divergent outcome, no doubt. Some of us would be luckier than others. But it might be fun.

Still, I love the comparison game for record setting or attempting--nothing could compete with that concept.

Just tried an OCC large map game...very hard. I couldn't get copernicus in time. Horrible Hut luck too! So so starting position. The problem with a large map OCC is the need for contact and trade. Perhaps Map making might be an essential science on a large map. Oh, and I didn't win


Aurelius.

	10-01-2000 02:14									#21
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I'm not sure if a would want to play every week, but maybe a two-weekly game would be better. If I understand your idea correctly it would just be a 4000 BC random start, not looking for any special terrain, just play with what you get.

	10-01-2000 04:45									#22
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Hi Paul,

That's right, random beginning with/without extra techs or terrain specials starting in 4000 bc. Every two weeks sound fine.

Don't exactly know how game positions would be submitted. Either we could have random positions from different players or a designated player, 'monitor', submitting a random position every two weeks from their Civ II version. It's a low maintenance effort and if the 'monitor' wants to pass the batan, anyone can pick it up.

I must say, it seems like it would be a good fit with your OCC page, but I don't want to volunteer you I guess we need a url from which one could download the bi-weekly game. I like the choice of your website as it has the 'cheats' listed and strategy for new players and everyone knows of about your site. Also, it gets more complex if we all have to rely on email.

Any ideas are welcome. Perhaps an independant thread would be useful. The idea is to have a position to discuss contextually and have a bit of competitive fun. Oh, and maybe I'd complete a log for once

Aurelius.

	10-01-2000 11:03									#23
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I would be willing to put the games on my web site for downloading; it wouldn't take too much time to upload it and post the url here.

As for starting the game, the starter should have v2.42 if you want everyone to be able to play because MGE saves are not backwards compatible. I don't know if you should have one player to always start the game or maybe get a list of people who would be willing to submit games? In that case we would probably need a list of who would start the game in which week.

	10-01-2000 12:48									#24
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Aurelius,
The Deity OCC pretty much requires the player to get Colossus, Copernicus, and Newton. Getting Philosophy first is almost as important, but not truly essential (as long as the civ that beats you to Phil is generally lagging behind you).

I suppose since everyone would have the same handicap it would be "even," but in general it's no fun struggling and keeping a detailed log, only to get stomped long before the modern era. I've played with the editor, generating map after map, and too many just have squat for defensible sites with enough rivers or trade specials to have a shot.

I think maps submitted should have some decent chance of at least getting a good run for the money.

	10-01-2000 13:39									#25
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Hey don Don,

Perhaps we should just give the random map a chance. If we find the maps too inhospitable, we can go from there. I'm pretty much a beginner at OCC. But I feel I can win the game most of the time with 1900+ AC dates. I also like that I can lose to the AI! Makes for exciting games and leads to good old human ingenuity.

I'm going to start a thread, Bi-weekly OCC competition. If folks feel a need for a non-random map, that will be fine with me.

Oh, and with two weeks to complete the games, maybe we'd all have the patience to make a good log and the time to make hard decisions.

See you at the new thread--"Fortnight OCC competition."

Seems biweekly has two meanings in my not so concise dictionary--occurring once every two weeks AND occurring twice in a week. Nothing like ambiguity! So Fortnight has a nice sound and unambigous meaning.

Thanks, Aurelius.

	11-01-2000 10:41									#26
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I like this biweekly competition idea too. Count me in.

I'll have to go look at that new thread...

	11-01-2000 05:45									#27
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Whooo hooo! Sounds fun. I will jump in if I can be the first one to post that I had my city taken out by the Vikings in 1200bc!