03-01-2000 05:33									#1
	smart use of helicopters Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

total ripoff of smart use of marines but......

I don't build these much as I'm usually in Democracy and heading towards AC.However,I 've actually reached the stage in a MP game where these are gonna appearing soon.Since they ignore walls I think I should have an idea or 2 on how to use them effectively.Admittedly I am completely in the dark on how to deploy and use these contraptions.So?

	03-01-2000 05:52									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

First, dont use them like the AI, alone.

Remember that Carriers have no limit. Fill up a carrier with vet helos. Now you can take cities without ground units, and since there is no limit to the carrier...see, transport= max 8 howitzers or whatever. But a carrier with 3 aegis as missile protection is unlimited! You can carry dozens and dozens, enough to occupy a whole continent from the air!

	03-01-2000 06:03									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hey Smash,

Don't use them much either. But they are the only air units that can occupy a town after destroying all the city defensive units. So if you like battleships...you might want to move a helicopter along the same sea squares. They have good reconnaisance (spot subs) and comparable movement. So Battleships and helicopters are a powerful duo.

Aurelius.

	03-01-2000 06:31									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

i never build helicopters ..... unless as scouts but i will try the escort thing with battleships


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They call me Mr. Fierce

	03-01-2000 06:53									#5
	Suffering from ads?

Ya I figured carriers were the only way to get them to the "front".As they weaken as they move.Not likely any human is gonna allow me to buils airbases close to them.Just looking at the chart and carriers are 160 sheilds and helos are 100 a pop for a non vet attack of 10.Kinda expensive.Maybe resources are better alotted elsewhere.

	03-01-2000 07:06									#6
	Suffering from ads?

I build a helocoptor, once...



I don't think they are so great. they don't do to much and they cost alot.

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Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

	03-01-2000 08:43									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What do you mean 'no limit on carriers'?
I think 20 is max. For stealth bombers at least.

List of units i've never builded before:

1. AEGIS Cruiser (yeah...good fleet escorts,but no need for them against AI)
2. Archers (find some in the huts,but never buid a single one)
3. Artillery (got some from Leo)
4. Cannon (see #3)
5. Fanatics (never been in fundy against AI)
6. Helicopter (i like stealth bombers better)
7. Legion (see #2)
8. Marines (i like battleships better)
9. Paratroopers (i don't use nukes)
10.Partisans (got some when losing a city)

In multiplayer i did have cannons and other units are too sophisticated for most of multiplayer games including all i've played.

[This message has been edited by SmartFart (edited January 02, 2000).]

	04-01-2000 00:34									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

While carriers may only be able to sail with a set # of units,I beleive you can land unlimited amounts on them.I've moved a carrier with mega units and some of them just stay "hovering" and must be moved individually.

I finally built an explorer in a MP game.That was a first for me.

	06-01-2000 11:28									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I like Paratroopers. Is it my imagination that they win alot? I use vet troops only in late year. I actually have wondered if they have some surprise built into their attack...maybe it is just the 6! I like paratroopers as they help assalt remote cities of a dying AI....Don't like all the partisans pillaging.

	07-01-2000 00:12									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It seems like i forgot to put an explorer on my non-build list.

	07-01-2000 01:54									#11
	Get a bigger avatar today!

What is an explorer???

Archers, chariots, destroyers, crusiers, caravels, helios, partizans, marines... rare builds for me.

I have used helios to hold remote airbases for my paratroopers and aeros, but they are airbases that I have usually built to begin with.

	09-01-2000 15:01									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I do use Explorers: they're great scouts, and good for guiding stacks around the ZOCs to get to a target. After escort send them into a city radius of an obliging neighbor, who kindly returns them to the nearest city for the next stack (instead of the capital, which may be on a different continent).

I built a helo once. I built subs in one game. Actually, I can't remember ever building a carrier! It's easier to capture an enemy airbase or small city with paras, since they have a range of 10 which usually reaches across the seas on civ maps.

I never/rarely build:

1. Horsemen (usually have a few from huts)
2. Elephants (not agressive that early)
3. Catapults (same reason)
4. Caravels (wait for frigates)
5. Cannon (prefer Dragoons)
6. Arty (prefer Cavalry)
7. Fanatics (Fundy vs AI too easy)
8. Marines (prefer paras for beachhead & assault from land)
9. Subs (slow; don't fit my naval strategy)
10. Helos
11. Carriers
12. Nukes

	10-01-2000 02:47									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

God I LOVE this game!! There are as many approaches to it as there are players.

What many of U seem to NOT build... guess what? That's exactly what i do build!?

Let me preface by saying: i'v graduated to strictly playing with other humans. Tho i do occasionally play with myself (if no one is watching).

So what follows is based on MP, deity level, usually 1x, restless or raging, random of preferably med or large(i love to explore new worlds).

ARCHERS: 2nd unit i want... after horses. They defend as well as anything up muskets. Have enuf counterattack, especially if vets(which is what i build), to kill anything up to muskets. Almost as important; they are the only military unit that takes 30 to build so it's quite easy bang them out or rush build them at the sign of barbs or other aggressors (they make easy "change", so-to-speak).
Plus, combined with a couple of horses, make a great barb-leader-killing team (& in deity=150 gold, i LOVE that!).

EXPLORERS: as don Don says... they make GREAT scouts! Ignore ZOC's & U can approach suspected enemy positions from ANY direction. Move 2 & back off 1, move 2 backoff 1 = in anything but all clear terrain; there's not a unit that can touch'm.
AND even tho they can ignore others' ZOC's... others can't ignore theirs = great for freezing that elephant/dragoon/cav unit so it can't wipe out your main attacker force! He-he.
AND THEN of course, there's always their favorite pastime... hut-hunting in every last unexplored region; like the polar caps(they can even run from hut-hordes if U do the approach rite).

CARVELS: often, but not always. Like'm because they carry 3 vs frigate's 2.
PLUS i just LOVE blowing away those pesky little triemes that bug U sometimes & even an occasional horse or settler on the shore if carvel is a vet.
Actually, i LOVE frigates, but at that stage of the game other tech's usually take priority... unless i'm an island nation. Then it's navy all the way & Megellan's=cruical. Then your little carvels speed along their little shuttle routes for the rest of the game.

FANATICS: NEVER used to build pre-MP, because playing solo, NEVER went into Fundy govt. Believe me, if U havn't played into the modern era against some good, SMART, UNPREDICTABLE human leaders... then U have a lesson to learn about the value of Fundy & those dirt-cheap, 4-defense/2 hit-point, get-in-the-way, blitzkrieg-slowing, little fanatics.
You havn't experienced the FULL range of this fantasticaly diverse game until your democracy takes on a Fundy that knows what he's doing!!
For the cost of 1 helio or armor, U can build 5 of these little rascals. Put them in fortresses & slow down anything short of a nuke attack!!
U hate'm or ya lov'm... depending on which side of the war your on.

HELIO's: what Smash asked about before all this started. True very expensive(don't U wish they could carry troops@that price?!); really too bad they are so costly. But...
If you can afford to produce a few of them (& don't bother building as vet's); they make excellent sea patrols (just like real life).
Few things can kill them at sea, they can stay "on station" for many turns, they spot 2 squares, & they can sink little piss-ant naval units like subs, transports, & destroyers when they try to sneak into your space!
ALSO, as mentioned above, they make a good combined arms attack by stopping partisan formation & occupying an emptied city(whereupon they become instantly refreshed).

Whew! Sorry, must be the caffine in my fingers. Other than that... have a good day!

PS: Sten S/S'Fart/others that play their way... we GOTTA play. Our styles are so diff, it would be most interesting.
So ICQ me some time, big boy.

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"Hm-m-m, doubt me you will?"
[This message has been edited by KenThur (edited January 09, 2000).]

	10-01-2000 09:36									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I agree with everthing KenThur said above. I also like helicopters. Four or five together can deliver a lot of fire power.

Explorers are must have units. Just to explore the land before attack.

Now, deity level... this option makes the game too easy. Some of you live off this barb king bonus. Whoever gets lucky with 4 or 5 kings can run away with the game, instead of taxes everything the cities generate can go into science. It also slows a already slow game even more because instead of having workers in the fields bustin butt you have to have them in the city for happy problems. There's nothing baby about playing at a lower level. It's still humans on the other end.

	10-01-2000 09:58									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Patrolling sounds like a good role for them as you don't want to lose them(expensive) in battle.Yes they should be able to transport 2 ground units.Helos play a major role in troop transportation nowadays.2 different ones would have been nice.A Huey type and an Apache gunship type

I think if you could guarantee 2 settlers you would see more MP games below deity.Thats the main reason for me.Unfortunately players are apprehensive about pre-made maps and you can spend weeks trying to get 3 players with 2 settlers on top of no host techs.Wouldn't be too hard to make a patch for this would it?

	12-01-2000 14:59									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I use helicopters to accomplish the following tactical goals.

1. Find and destroy subs and transports.
2. Find and kill settlers, engineers, caravans, freight, diplomats and spies -- especially in remote areas.
3. Exterminate unwalled cities (always attack from over land squares to do this) which could later be used as airbases or ports.
4. Prevent establishment of new cities.
5. Eliminate huts I have no hope of getting to.
6. Harass distant, isolated cities in order to divert resources away from the area I really intend to attack.
7. Find and destoy explorers and scouts.

Helicopters are very useful in games in which opposition cities are not yet walled --which frequently happens in those games where the opposing civs develop late. But they are certainly not useful in all games.

Once a helicopter leaves a city, I never expect it to return. I think of them more as missles, than as regular units.

	13-01-2000 10:38									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm no big fan of Helicopters. They're expensive, slow, have a lousy defense, lose hit points just by sitting around, always cause unhappiness in Democracy, can only attack once per turn, can be attacked by any unit, and you have to research a dead-end advance to get them. That's a big list of negatives.

In general, Stealth Fighters, Bombers or AEGIS can do the same things as Helicopters, but better. Stealth Fighters don't cause unhappiness in Dem and can attack multiple times. Bombers can only be attacked by fighters and have more punch than Helicopters. AEGIS can patrol the seas indefinitely without losing hps and are mostly immune to air attacks.

	13-01-2000 11:20									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Everything you say is true, but the question, I believe, was about how to use helicopters "smartly".

Frankly, I get sick of stealth. It's too easy. Helicopters are a fun diversion -- a way to vary your forces and break the monotony of stealth, steath, stealth, howizter, howizter, howitzer, boom, boom, boom, die, die, die. And they sound cool to boot.

	13-01-2000 17:28									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Regarding the question of transporting groud units on Helos:

First, you get Helos with CA, so think of them as combined gunships and troop transports. That's why Helos can occupy a city. There wouldn't be enough troops to constitute a whole Rifles unit, and they're only effective when used with air cavalry tactics.

Secondly it's a matter of sheer capacity. For airlift you can pack hundreds of soldiers into an airplane that is making many trips between cities with large airports. The really big helicopter transports like the Chinook might carry 30 men (about half a platoon); the UH1G carries 6-8 (about half a squad).
[This message has been edited by don Don (edited January 13, 2000).]

	14-01-2000 10:49									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

wd4: Alright then, I would say that the "smartest" way to use Helicopters is: a) fly them to one of your cities, b) disband them and use the shields to build something better!

	15-01-2000 04:49									#21
	Put an end to popups!

Now that's what I call smart.