13-01-2000 19:17									#1
	Do you go to Republic immediately -- or ever? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The consensus here is that the sooner you get to Monarchy the better. But when if ever do you go to Republic: the moment you get it or ... never, and wait to go to Democracy or Fundy or something else?

What, in short, are the benefits & disadvantages of Republic?

	13-01-2000 19:44									#2
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In short: against AI-immediatelly,in multiplayer-rarely

It's very easy to get all happiness wonders against AI,so martial law isn't so important.
One defensive unit per city is enough for defence,so supporting units isn't problem at all. With HG and MC your cities will grow rapidly under republic and double trade result with alot of arrows so you don't need more than 30% luxuries to have WLTCD in most of your cities if you have enough temples,few marketplaces,mysticism and theology.
Republic is a dead end. Waste isn't a problem worth mentioning,but corruption is.
Am usually under republic about 2000 bc +- 300 years.
Multiplayer is a whole different story. I was under Republic very few times. It's much harder to get desired wonders against humans and one or two units per city unevitable leads to certain destruction. Every new multiplayer game is so different and it will take too much space to describe situations when i go for republic and when i stay in monarchy,waiting for SoL or for opportunity to steal Democracy.

	13-01-2000 20:50									#3
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That's exactly what I needed to know, SmartFart. I play only single player so I'm on my way to Republic!

Thanks a lot.

	14-01-2000 06:27									#4
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I disagree. I play single player(can't stand to wait in multiplayer) and usually win. I tend to stay in monarchy a long time and expand by building more cities. The reduced cost of settler food and 3 supported units helps this. Usually I get democracy and SOL before I change. Only in OCC do go republic early.

	14-01-2000 17:54									#5
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I agree with geofelt. Republic has some severe support problems in the early game, when I have relatively few cities and lots of units out exploring or defending choke points. Since I generally play ICS, I'll go straight from Monarchy to Communism after I build SoL.

	14-01-2000 18:08									#6
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Going to republic early in Deity just never seems like the best option. Even against the AI, by the time Republic and WLYD's looks promising, I'm close to getting Democracy... so I wait until then. I can only think of one or two times where Republic made sense... I got it early (usually from a hut), I have the happiness wonders to take real advantage of WLYD's, and I'm in a safe enough position where I'm not to worried about attacks from other civs or barbs.
99% of the time, I race straight to monarchy, and won't change until Democracy is available.

	14-01-2000 19:13									#7
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In single players/deity republic is a good option if you have happiness wonders, bypass monarchy, have a small # of cities.
Going staright to republic with HG can be very powerful.
If you build more than 10 cities I find it better to go from monarchy to democracy (only 1 anarchy phase).
In MP it's about the same. You can go straight to rep but you are not guarantied to be the 1st for the garden. So I find it risky. I use to play this way and it was very effective. Now I prefere to expand more thus making monarchy to demo a better option.

	15-01-2000 04:47									#8
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The ONLY time I will go to Republic is during an MP game when I am in a race with someone for Invention or another important tech. Otherwise I wait for Democracy and stay there.

I have no problem fighting large, sustained wars as a Democracy at deity level so I rarely have need for Republic.

Despotism, Monarchy, Democracy.

I'm sure I've played close to 2000 Civ 2 games now and I've never converted to communism or fundamentalism. In the original game I used to play at least half of the game as a communist, but I've never found it necessary in Civ 2.

	15-01-2000 06:33									#9
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hmmm...
I like this game A LOT!
So may ways.
Here is another:
Has you know, I'm an ICS fan.
Even at deity.
I use Republic a lot. Only at deity, and when the research path wont allow, I will have CBurial before Rep!!
But at deity I race to the HG.
They are a must to the ICSer at Deity.
---
Now, playing King level at 2x2x, most of the games I race to Rep and then to Mono. Build Mikes, and its all set: I trade for Monarchy with other CIVs and leapfrog into Bachs.
Yes, look at WLTPD working in full glory.
Invention, Democracy, Railroads, and the world is mine! LOL
---
Sometimes, things go wrong:
a) You have a lot of defenseless cities, early in the game. A Human CIV nearby + a bunch of horseman and you are toast.
b) The damn huts gives you bogus tech, like the wheel, or warrior code, to early. Arghhh!!
c) A good player gots a 2nd settler early from a hut, and he is also an ICSer. You loose the wonders, and its to late when you realize that.
---
Wonders I never built: The pyramids. Never, ever. I'm a WLTPD addict!
---
Lesson learned: From CmdrCD: I had Mikes+Bach, and he beated me to the Statue. He turned Fundy and with a bunch of vets Ironclads (he had the Lighthouse)and a couple trirremes with land units, conquered my capital, and captured Mikes. Sayonara, I was toasted!

	16-01-2000 10:54									#10
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I agree with carnide_, I like this game a lot! And wonderdog4, 2000 games??? Holy, moly! When do you eat, sleep, et al?

Anyway, I was wondering if the following is a good graphical representation of the various strategies and where everyone lies on the graph. Now that I think about it, I'm wondering how I'm going to get it to display like I want it to.

OCC --- Perfectionist --- Expansionist/Perfectionst --- Expansionist --- ICS


I would put myself just to the right of center. Does this make sense to anyone?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited January 15, 2000).]

	16-01-2000 00:19									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

kcbob, thanks for the continuum. I too fall in the middle, although I previously thought of myself as a more of a perfectionist.

Wonderdog's assertion doesn't surprise me; he seems to be willing to play anyone, anytime, no matter what their skill level or strategy. If you could get paid to play this game, he'd be the richest player in the world!

	16-01-2000 00:25									#12
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Playing SP makes me lazy, and i end up playing a monarchy too late in the game, or staying in repubic too long (its so easy to go to war in republic against the AI).

I switch to republic or democracy as soon as I have stopped expanding. I usually switch over when my biggest city is size 7 or 8.

Course, im biased on account of playing too many SP games, so take this advice with a grain of salt!

	16-01-2000 14:54									#13
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It all depends on the situation.

___
CtG

	17-01-2000 05:10									#14
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This qouestion was asked before but maybe my english is not so good. So, again, what is ICS? Does it just mean many cities, or close cities, or unprotected cities or what? I played a lot of single player and some multiplayer and I still dont understand. I would appreciate a longer explanation.

Enlighten me

	17-01-2000 09:27									#15
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ICS = Infinite City Squeeze, I think, you keep building settlers and cities, then defense and then more settlers. It works because as you build more cities you get more sciences. You can build lots of units very fast. It's hard to beat... but it is very hard to do successfully. I hope this helps.

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	17-01-2000 09:44									#16
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I thought it was infinite city sleeze. i could be wrong though, i usually am.

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SandMonkey

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-Homer Simpson

	17-01-2000 13:53									#17
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I don't play as much as I used to. The new game is too long. Eats half a day. I miss the old game when you could conquer the whole world by 800 BC and the whole game didn't take more than 90 minutes. On a good day a guy could squeeze in 5 or 6 games. Now, with Civ 2, you have to use accelerated starts just to get in 3.

In any case, 2000 is probably a bit much. It's probably more like 1600 or so. But I don't keep track so who really knows.

I do know, though, that I've played at least 100 MP games against Nephi -- and if he keeps practicing I think he might even win one.

	17-01-2000 13:57									#18
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One more thing. Nephi a perfectionist?

He doesn't ICS, but I've never seen him stop expanding in an MP game.

Starting a game next to Nephi is like starting a game in the middle of a war you have been losing for 2000 years.

	18-01-2000 05:02									#19
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ICS is "Infinite City Sleaze". And as I understand it, it is more than expansionism. You build your first city. Build a settler. Move at MOST two squares, and build your next city. Lots of overlap of cities, lots of cities, no unmanageable growth and a core that's virtually impossible to attack due to the ZsOC (zones of control) of the outlying cities.

Sounds intriguing but I'm still a bit left of that philosophy.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.