12-01-2000 11:29									#1
	What do you do when you start off in the midst of mountains, plains, and deserts? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

About every third game, chance has me stuck in a place with maybe one shield, no farming land, and everything mountains, hillls, brush, and desert.

If I start off my first city right there, I have a hard time making it amount to anything, or even produce enough to get going on other cities. If I move to a more salubrious area, I'm already three turns behind the AI.

There is one solution, to just start over again, but that's just a little bit too easy.

Are there any other answers?

Jim W

	12-01-2000 12:00									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Jim against the ai it is ok to explore a good 10 - 20 turns looking for a good site and to tip huts..... against humans.... well thats another post.....

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They call me Mr. Fierce

icq 30200920

	12-01-2000 14:30									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

As Slowwhand would say: if life (or civ) gives you lemons, make lemonade. But in this case you might want to try Mountain Dew.
[This message has been edited by wonderdog4 (edited January 17, 2000).]

	12-01-2000 14:31									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Even against humans I'd go for a little wander. How little? As t'other guy said, that's another post. But I wouldn't build my first city in MP in an absolutely junk spot.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	12-01-2000 14:48									#5
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Jim against the ai i have wandered three millenium , conquered three civs had a fourth on the run and got aobut 15 techs and about 18 units and hordes of cash before my first city...... you can always catch up and it is better to be lower in pop early in the game..... i like to see my civ rise to the top as opposed to being on top the whole game andincurring the wrath of the ai early hehe.... as for what finnie said.... a small wander is ok as longs as everyone else hasn't built their city yet


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They call me Mr. Fierce

icq 30200920

	12-01-2000 17:55									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Even then, I've built my first city half a dozen turns after other players and still come through. Because I found a bonzer spot. I was lucky. Life's a gamble!

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	13-01-2000 00:48									#7
	Got spare money?

Getting to monarchy quickly in mp is so important, that it is worth delaying your first city till you find a trade special. With corruption in the rest of your cities prior to monarchy, it takes a lot of extra cities to make up the difference. Having said that, if i wander and don't find anything quickly, i'm more likely to try to use an ics type strat to catch up. And pray that the barbs don't butcher me.
RAH

	14-01-2000 06:37									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Don't found the palace in a place with no potential. Exploring lets you find a good place, and you might get some good things from huts. If the starting spot is outstanding, I still explore a few turns.

	14-01-2000 18:03									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I agree with Rah (no surprise there)

Your Capital is critical in terms of developing science. While it sometimes really gets me in trouble if after wandering, I don't find a decent location, I will still wander until I find some kind of trade special. Trying to research the early sciences while getting only one or two science beakers just won't cut it. Even if it takes you 8 to 10 turns to find something good, you can still catch up if you find a location that can deliver 5 or more beakers.

Plus, a few free non units from huts can really help you explore the world quicker.

	16-01-2000 10:21									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I feel like life is one big "weaning" experience. I've successfully broken myself of the habit of saving, trying something, and reloading if I don't like the results. And I seem to be holding my own on Emperor level now. BUT (there's that big but again), I still restart the game if I don't like the starting position.

Now in my own defense, I do wander a little, maybe 5 to 10 turns, but if I still find myself in the middle of nothing, I restart. My question is, if after wandering for a millenium or so, I find a great city spot, can I really get back in the ballgame? Is there a window or combination where all is lost? Or is this just another habit from which I need to be weaned?

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

	16-01-2000 08:22									#11
	Tired of ads?

KCBOB.... wander until you find that first perfect site so that catching up will not be difficult!!!!

I love whatching my civ grow in strength as the game progresses...... My Mongols actually do grow in to a horde

You can wander at least two millenium without serious consequences

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They call me Mr. Fierce

icq 30200920

	17-01-2000 20:58									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

My recent experience differs from this. On Friday I started a game and didn't like the map features. I started exploring with my settler, got a couple units from huts, and explored with all three for about a dozen turns. I founded my capitol, and within two more turns Zulu elephants showed up to attack my one warrior. I figured if they were already past polytheism I was in trouble, so I quit the game and restarted.

Might this be another MGE difference? I have got to find a cheap copy of v2.42 to play.

	17-01-2000 21:28									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

In a 1x prod mp game I find the starting position very important. On the other hand in mp you've got about 3 - 5 turns wandering time at most otherwise everyone will sail past you.

In a situation of bad land all around in mp i find the best strategy is build on a bit of grass, ignoring specials, churn out two scout warriors then a settler to go to the best nearby spot. this new city should of course be made capital as soon as is conveniant.

if this fails moan to all the other players endlessly, it works for me

Graag


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A man could not be in two places at the same time unless he were a bird!
#47222759

	18-01-2000 10:41									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

W4E -

I play on King (my next new game will be on Emperor, i just have to finish up the Americans in my current game), and i don't know about waiting 2 millenium. I guess since i try and play ICS it would sort of put a kink in pumpng out my settlers.
By the way War4ever, what's your favorite war-time unit to attack with? I would have to imagine if you are behind the AI that unit owuld be rather worthless (unless it's howies or nukes or something like that).

	17-01-2000 23:13									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Restart... its as simple as that.

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CtG

	18-01-2000 00:01									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you need to restart against the AI than you need to play a few games from a bad start anyway. This is what makes the game fun! I can always catch the AI in terms of science and units. It's so easy to dig in. The AI will attack but can't win a war to save its life. Any city that is under threat - transform city center to hills. No attack by the AI will take it. Now you have time to aquire the units you need to stomp the AI. I've started to expand much more against the AI and it does make a big difference. The last MP game I was in was against Ming. I expanded much more in that game than I have before. Now I was not beating on Ming bad but for me it was one of my better games (although I still say rivers made the big difference).

So play the bad starts against the AI. It will make you a better player in MP. And oh yeah, I dont see a difference in AI between CIV versions and MPE (gold, whatever).

	18-01-2000 00:09									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Yes, but in a MP game you can't just leave if your starting position stinks. You have to deal with it.

And even though the AI (in the end) isn't much of a problem, it's still good to have practised against it a few times.

But I always get that frustrating feeling if I don't find a couple of trade specials early in MP. And checking the top five cities while wandering, only to see that everyone else are breeding like rabbits...

I HATE IT!

I guess what I'm saying is that restarting against the AI is convenient, but it's also a bad habit that takes the edge out of your play.

I also think of it this way. When playing MP you're actually going to get whacked for the first time in years. But hey, if it hadn't been for that lousy starting position...

Carolus

	18-01-2000 00:11									#18
	Remove this text

My post was a reply to CtG, MWHC posted in between.

Carolus

	18-01-2000 00:20									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It's luck in MP. Luck of the dice! Start off on a river system that can support 5 or 6 cities - along with silk or whales nearby... you've already won the first few sessions (which means the first wonders -- which means the game). I'd really like to see the starting positions of games played. Than we can all see how important starting positions really are. People need to start saving the maps on turn 1. Play the game out (however far it gets). Than post screen shots of the start locations.

Luck... it really is just that. Still fun because I'm sure there are games where all players get good or bad starts. But, if one person gets a super start (2 or 3 whales on a river/forest) - what an advantage. But I guess thats the way it is in real life also.

	18-01-2000 00:25									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

But you can lose in a position like that... cheaters... cough... cough...

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CtG

	18-01-2000 00:56									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I like the idea of saving on turn 1. I shall do that from now on.

Graag

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A man could not be in two places at the same time unless he were a bird!
#47222759

	18-01-2000 02:45									#22
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, eh...

OK, luck matters. But it's not all about the best starting position, that is to simplify things too much. There's a lot more to the game...

Outstanding sites are rare, but aren't the real bad ones too? Anyway, I doubt I would win against a really good player like Xin Yu even if I have a great first city or two and he only have dirt.

And there's always the "AI-syndrome"! Gang up on the "lucky" guy to contain his aggression...

Carolus

	18-01-2000 03:46									#23
	Remove this text

MWHC...you say, if the AI is a threat to attack a city, just transform the city center to hills. I have tried to get my settler to do a transform when he is in the city center, but my game (2.42, I'm sure) doesn't let him do that. Does it take an engineer? or how do you have it set so the city center can be transformed to hills???

	18-01-2000 07:50									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I used to re-start from poor positions. But MWHC is right about playing those bad locations to sharpen your skills.

One of the most enjoyable games I played was having a really poor capital. Moscow was a dump! (Plains/tundra) I kept wishing someone would nuke it - as I would have gained more trade if it was flattened to a car park! The next couple of cities were not much better. Things became more difficult as hostile Greeks appeared to my east. On the brink of despair, I found a decent spot for a science city - three silk. After a close race I just managed to build the Colossus there. The rest is history and a lot of catching up.

Sure, it's great to have a wonderful capital - but not essential.

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Scouse Git (2)

	18-01-2000 08:36									#25
	Support Apolyton

Only an engineer can transform a city square from plains to hills, but a settler is capable of removing trees beneath a city square if you have reason to build one there.
[This message has been edited by wonderdog4 (edited January 17, 2000).]

	18-01-2000 10:40									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Wonderdog4 Yes, I have had engineers transform "a city square" but MWHC was stating that he would transform the "center" square of a city to hills to give the city extra defense against AI attack. I would like for someone to tell me what I need to do to accomplish that kind of transform. Thanks. PW

quote: Originally posted by wonderdog4 on 01-17-2000 10:36 PM Only an engineer can transform a city square from plains to hills, but a settler is capable of removing trees beneath a city square if you have reason to build one there. [This message has been edited by wonderdog4 (edited January 17, 2000).]

	18-01-2000 11:07									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

This is a no brainer - quit game, start again.


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Founder of the People's Republic of Off Topic (PROT)

	18-01-2000 11:27									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

in theory.... i believe that the quick restart from bad terrain in single player is why there are so many quitters in MP.... no one likes to work hard to build their civ.... i play lots and i win more than i lose, and i beat and lose to the same people.... its humbling but thats the way it is and all my games make me even better and more difficult to beat..... the key with a bad start is to expand to better land..... you can always move the capital and the happy wonders do not win you games...... if you cant' get them then take the wall or sunzu's or library .... tech means crap when it can be stolen oh so easily
Sandmonkey.... i like crusaders obviously... but i use a lot of dips now ,,,, especially in stacks with a defensive unit like a pikeman

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They call me Mr. Fierce

icq 30200920