22-01-2000 04:08									#1
	Misc. OCC Logs: Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, I like looking at the logs of others. Such reports don't remind me of my kind of work and I like the concept of sharing ideas. Here's my latest OCC game (I have the .sav for anyone interested. And forgive me for any loglapse.)

Plakosh of the Germans:

4000-Diety-rage-aphabet
3950-Hut-horsy and hut Archer
3900-Hut Warrior Code
3750-Hut chariot
3750-Berlin
3700-Hut archer researching->Bronze
3600-First contact-Americans-Peace-trade for Code of Laws-denied tribute
3550-Hut archer
3500-Hut Pottery
3450-Hut Writing
3400-Contact-Babalonians-Peace-trade for Ceremonial Burial-denied tribute
3350-Contact-Americans-Peace-trade for Bronze Working-denied tribute
3350-Hut-barb-lost Archer. ->Monarchy
3200-Babalonians Destroyed by Barbs
3100-Contact-Carthaginians-Peace-tributed horseback riding Size 2
3000-Hut horsy
2900-Hut 50gd
2850-Granary -> Colossus
2800-Hut archer
2700-Hut wheel
2550-Hut Iron Working
2450-Hut 50gp (105)
2200-Traded for Mapmaking-tributed for 50gd
2000-War with Carthaginians-Hut Chariot
1750-Destroyed Cathaginian city-Peace-denied tribute- sac booty- 13gd (179)
1750-Allied with Americans Tributed by Russians 100gd (279)
1650-Happiest-Americans/Russians/Germans/Carthaginians
1550-Carthaginians destroyed by Barbarians
1400-COLOSSUS (14)
1350-Hut barb-lost horsy
1200-Cdisorder! Size 5
1150-Monarchy->Currency Contact Spanish Peace-tributed for 100
1100-Library (15)
1050-Est. Monarchy

This late year monarchy was a bit annoying! But what can one do with all the Hut science

1000-Traded with Americans for Literacy and gifted for 25gd Traded for Currency with Russians tributed for 100gd (140)
975-temple (91) ->Construction
825-Marketplace (11)
700-Construction->Trade
650-Traded for Mysticism
625-Colleseum
600-100 gift from Americans and 100 tribute from Spanish.
600-Wealthiest Spanish-Russians-Germans-Americans
525-Aqueduct (74)
475-Diplomat
350-Trade->Republic--Size 10
325-first Caravan -Sneak attack from the Russians
200-second Caravan
175-Traded for Republic no gift from the Americans
125-Est Republic
?-Philosophy->Banking->Mathematics
? 1-Trade bonus 220
80-trade for Mathematics -Peace with Russians. War with Spanish. ->Astronomy
140-trade for Polytheism
160-Astronomy->University changed to Copernicus 2 caravans @126=252gd
280-Copernicus (102)
300-University->Medicine Happiest--Spanish Germans Russians Americans
340-Bank -sneak attack by Russians
400-Gift 100gd
420-University Starting Wonder
500-Medicine->Engineering
540-Peace with Spanish-sold Coliseum
640-Shankes-
660-Engineering->Sanitation 80/20 sci (210)
720-Sanitation->Invention 20/60/20 WCTPD
760-Sewer System
800-Invention->Democracy
900-Democracy->Economic Size 19 Trade 56 gd. - Revolution
940-Est Democracy
960-WLTCD Sci=3
980-War with Greeks-400gd from Americans
1000-Economic
1020-Stockexchange WLTCD
1040 Trade with Spanish -Seafaring&BridgeBuilding
1060 Theory of Gravativity->Gunpowder Switching to Issac
1140-Gunpowder->Chemistry Trade 169gd
1180-Chemistry->Explosives
1200-ISSAC's
1240-Powerful:Russians Spanish Americans Germans
1260-gifted 150gd
1280-Metallurgy->Navigation
1360-Navigation->Physic
1380-Physic->Steam Engine
1440-Steam Engine->Electricity
1460-Electricity->Conscription
1520-Conscription->Refridgeration
1550-Refridgeration->Railroad trade 96gd
1570-Railroad->Feudalism
1600-Feudalism->Industrial
1610-Supermarket WLTCD
1630-Industrial->Corporation
1640-Factory
1660-Corporation->Electronics
1690-Electronics->Refining
1710-WLTCD
1730-Refining->Steel
1740-Hydro Plant (60)
1746-Steel->Combustion
1754-Combustion->Atomic Theory two freight @126=252
1758-Atomic Theory->Automobile
1760-Freight @ 126
1764-Automobile->Mass Production
1768-Mass Production->1st BigHorsyScience- City Size 34 Terraformed to wine
1774-1st BigHorsy Science->Nuclear Fission
1776-Nuclear Fission->Leadership
1780-Leadership->Tactics
1784-Tactics->Machine Tools
1788-Machine->Mobile Warfare Sneak attack by the Spanish…Americans fighting the Spanish now.
1790-Second grassland to wine hills…building mine.
1792-Mobile->Miniaturization
1796-Miniaturization->Computer
1800-Computers->Robotics 50 shields!
1802-Research lab-1776 science beakers.
1804-Robotic-Mono -freight 146-100%science
1808-Mono->Nuclear Power
1812-Nuclear Power->Flight
1816-Flight->Radio-Manufacturing plant-60shield.
1820-Radio->Adv Flight
1824-Adv Flight->Laser
1828-Laser->TheologyTraded for Theology->Rocketry
1832-Rocketry->Space-Commencing Seti
1838-Space->Plastics
1840-Apollo
1842-Plastics-first structure by dispanding chariot Now 80shields
1850-Super Conductor->Recycling
1854-Recycling->Communism
1858-Communism->Fusion
1869 15 3 3 1 1 1 Launched-due in Alpha in 1884! My Best score! Easy win from here.

I could have played out the position, but the enemy couldn't even beat my phalanx in the mountains....so I went to bed at 4:00 in the morning....

Aurelius

Edit due to my inability to remember the name of BigHorsy Science and my subliminal disdain for Cavalry--and some other small things
[This message has been edited by Aurelius (edited January 21, 2000).]

	22-01-2000 04:55									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Aurelius,

I am very weary to giving out pointers when I'm the "Settler" and most others are "Prince" or "higher," so forgive me if I mention something you already know.

In OCC, it seems you just cannot let your city fall into disorder. Every turn of disorder pretty much equals a turn of delayed launch.

I liked how you mentioned from time to time how much gold you had on hand. I also think it will help me to include negative results as well as positive outcomes of dealing with AIs (i.e., denied tribute or sneak-attacked). I also like how you mentioned when your city gained population.

I would have liked to know more about the site you selected for your city, and I think I will start listing how many shields my city produces from time to time.

As far as tipping a hut with a 4-legged unit... If the outcome is barbarians, I most commonly get only one barbarian showing up. It is not a horde, but just one unit. With this in mind, if the hut is on grassland, plains, tundra, or any other square that only requires one movement point, I would recommend tipping it with your first move, and attacking the second if necessary. I will never tip a grassland, etc., hut on my second move. This will sometimes require me to waste a horsey move at the end of one turn so that I can tip it at the beginning of my next turn.

Of course you can't help it if the hut is forest, hills, mtns, etc., but at least it's better defensive terrain. And of course this may already be common knowledge -- I didn't encounter yet here or in the archives.

I wish I could offer you some clear-cut, sharp advice such as you and Sten offered me in the other thread. Unfortunately, I'm afraid I'm not astute or experienced enough to offer any more advice on reaching AC any earlier. I'm still in learning mode.

I'm learning a lot, and logs such as these (along with the invaluable comments from other players) are helping the process.

thanks!

	22-01-2000 05:27									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Hey Vik,

Yeah, I often do the same thing with the hut tipping. But later in the game, I sometimes meet up with 3 barbs--can't "kilt'd" them! Or escape them as you mentioned due to Mountains and forests etc.

Going into CD really hurt! Yes! I'm not afraid to put in these details after reading grigor's Fortnight account. It's just a game. There is a lot of hindsight in OCC or civ. And the length of the game is an exercise in minimizing carelessness!

Oh, the reason I didn't include too much starting info was due to the possibility that someone else might want to do a comparative log with the same .sav. In fact, I thought of sending it to you but your email address looked a bit suspicious I carelessly put mine up in the Fortnight Proposition thread if you're interested in the position. It's pretty cool.

Feel free to critique my play. I've been at apolyton since the end of the last millenium. In fact, sometimes I wish my handle was still settler--maybe cheiftain!



Au

	22-01-2000 13:14									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I don't know how you guys manage to kill your hut barbs. I get barbs from huts and they seem to croak my unit nearly 90% of the time. Even barb horsey attacking an archer in hills/forest/river, which should be a 50/50 proposition if the horsey is veteran. On the other hand, sometimes (maybe one in three) when you get only one barb unit it will just disappear instead of attacking.

In the game I logged in Genghis Al's thread I got so frustrated by the barbs always winning. I had a vet archer fortified on a forest tile being attacked by a barb archer. I had saved it just before hitting [Enter] to end turn, so I kept reloading to see what kind of win-loss record I could document.

If the barb was vet it should've been 1.5³ to 1.5 = 2.25 to 1, if not it should've been 1.5³ to 1 = 3.375 to 1. In twelve tries I got only 2 wins = 1 to 5! The SOBs must cheat. When I'm just playing for fun I always give myself one reload if I get barbs from a hut and they croak my dude.

	23-01-2000 07:49									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

This is a log of the Monarchy at 4000 BC OCC game.

Greetings soft ones! To celebrate mighty Grigor triumphing over aggressive uncooperative AI and unpromising location. To experience slow midgame with no huts. To play mediocre middlegame. To despair of victory, but to jubilantly fend off indolent manycitied AI.

4000BC Alph, CB, CoL, Monarchy (!) Revolution.
3950 Oraibi founded. began mining wine
3850 gov: Monarchy

3750 build warrior.
3700 BW -> Write. To suspect in hindsight this may be bogus strategy.
3550 build warriors
3500 mines finished
3400 size 2
3350 Writing. build warrior. Start Lib
3200 Currency
2900 Trade
2800 build Library. start Col. To wonder whether Caravans first might be better.
2600 Maps
2450 Sioux: give Maps, Trade; Take Myst., HbR. Peace
2350 Japanese: give Maps, take wheel. To deny them writing. War.
2100 Literacy
1550 Phil, Mas
1200 build Colossus

1050 Build Phalanx. Size 4
1000 Sioux discover Seafaring. To gnash mastication palps afterwards over cowardly ndecision. To realize that this starting location needs harbor. To experience repeated warlike rebuffs next 2000 years.
975 Math
875 build Copper Caravan
775 To watch helplessly as Japanese kill warrior. Rep. Revolution
750 gov: Rep. Build Trireme. Disband 2 warriors. Lux at 30

675 Sioux develop Poly
600 build Temple. Berlin builds Pyr. To forestall groaning want by setting taxes high until Mkt
525 To deny Sioux demand for Rep: War
425 build Mkt
400 Const. Copper Caravan: Little Bighorn 128 (demanded)
350 Astro. Coal 225gp (demand)
200 WLTCD starts size 4
150 To experience humiliation as Barbs kill extra Settler and fortified Phalanx. WLTCD ends size 7
125 Medicine
100 Barbs move onto mines. To rub eating antennae together in expectation of killing weak Barb archer with new-minted phalanx. To be brought to earth by failure to consider the loss of shields from Barb square. To contemplate throwing brick at computer.
75 Barbs pillage mines. Build phalanx. kill Barbs. Phalanx is vet. Rome builds GW
50 Japanese: give Math. Peace

AD1 find Roman Trireme. Find hut. To bravely investigate with Caravan: NONE horse.
20 Carthage: give Constr. Peace
60 Carthage builds Lighthouse
80 To be surprised by nearby Germans. To cravenly pay 50 gp for peace. To ask self: WWPD (what would Paul do?)
180 Engin. To find Rome: give Rep. Peace
280 Beads to Rome: 204 gp (demanded). Veii builds Marco Polo.
300 Sanitation
340 Carthage: War
420 Coal to Utica: 120 gp (no demand)
440 Banks
460 Build Shakespeare. WLTCD starts size 6
Sioux: give Rep, declare War with Japanese. Peace

600 Build Aqueduct. Sell Temple
620 Univ
640 Disband Settlers. Lux at 20. To deny Sioux San. War
680 Carthage discovers Inv
720 build Bank. WLTCD ends size 9. To need Seafaring. To disband Trireme
800 Econ. To give Phil to Sioux: Cease-fire. No Trading.
960 build Copernicus. Malaca builds Leonardo's. Rome develops Monotheism

1000 Pottery
1080 Seafaring. To be better late than never
1100 Harbor. WLTC starts size 9
1160 Inv.
1200 build Sewer
1260 Demo
1340 WLTCD ends size 19. Revolution. Barbs land. Germans are near.
1400 build Barracks. gov: Demo

1420 Chem
1460 ToG. Build Dip
1510 WC. Germans: give Inv. Establish Embassy
1580 Gunp
1610 Metall. Bribe German Archer. Caravan to Konigsberg: 50gp. Bribe Catapult
1640 Explos. Carthage has Gunpowder. To feel the first itchy premonitions of defeat.
1680 Carthage takes Konigsberg (nearest city to me.)
1710 Build Newton. Conscription

1730 Build Engineers, Nav
1750 Phys
1754 Carthage: War
1756 Steam E
1758 build Stock Exch
1760 Magnets
1764 Electric
1768 build Destroyer. Atom Th
1772 Refrig. To experience hope. To forestall grizzly bear of poverty by high taxes for several turns.
1780 build Supermkt
1786 Feud. build City Walls. Start Wonder
1788 Indust. Salt Caravan: 32 gp

1792 Corp
1796 WLTPD starts size 18
1798 Sioux Ironclad kills Engineer. To vow Revenge on craven Sioux Navy. WLTPD ends size 19
1800 Refining
1806 WLTPD starts size 19
1808 Steel
1812 WLTPD ends size 21. Superhiway. Chivalry
1838 Sioux sink Destroyer.
1840 Tactics
-To not keep good track until Space flight: to get Darwin, Mobil War, then Communism. To build new barracks, defend hills with 2 vet armor. Built Hoover; to forget reason why. To succeed (barely ) in rush for UN to survive endgame. To experience pleasurable rush of fluids to forelimbs during crux of game:
1920 Space Fl
1922 Apollo
1925 Plastics
1957 launch ETA 1972.
To exult in naval revenge! To bribe 5 Sioux ships and wiping out Sioux Battleship. Built SAM, SDI, Airport, several vet fighters. To forego Stealth.

1972 To arrive as Cruel Abe Lincoln on AC



------------------
--grigor

	24-01-2000 06:02									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Here is a log of a game I did this weekend. I may have had one of the best starts anyone has ever had, but I could only parlay it into an 1857 landing. Why? Copernicus in 175bc, Shake's in 400ad, and I wasn't even the first to philosophy. I also neglected to find any 4-legged units in any huts, so please give some advice. Thanks

p.s.--thanks paul for the tips on the other thread!

______________________


4000bc--started with cereburi; hut—archers
3950bc--wow! The 4-special pattern is just one square north of my original starting position. I’d have to build my city on a forest, but I’d get 2 whales and 2 buffalo. I’ll irrigate it first.
3900bc--while one settler irrigates the square, I move the other on top and Cardiff (Celt) founded.
3850bc--researching bronze working, building warrior
3800bc--hut—pottery
3750bc--warrior built, building hanging gardens
3700bc--city square irrigated, now on plains. Cardiff has (in addition to the specials) 3 other ocean squres (not landlocked), 2 other plains (one on a river), a jungle, 6 grasslands, 3 forest and 1 mountain. Only on of the grasslands has a shield, but I have 5 squares of river running around. The river covers the shield-grass, a forest, a plains, and 2 grasslands. Should be no problem getting supporting 20+ population, but I’m initially concerned about getting to 80 shields – I’ll definitely have to engineer modify some of it.
3650bc--hut-horseback riding
3250bc--bronze working-->alphabet; switched to building colossus
3150bc--hut—archers
2950bc--hut-50 gold; encounter egyptions, trade for masonry; peace, denied alliance, denied tribute
2800bc--met indians; traded for alphabet and mapmaking; alliance, no gift, but shared maps – Delhi is only ten (10!) squares away—gotta watch them so they don’t cut in on my production!
2550bc--hut—mathematics
2450bc--met chinese, traded for currency; peace, alliance, shared maps, got 50 gold.
2150bc--good defensive terrain to keep the chinese and egyptians away—the terrain bottle necks about 20 squares away, and they have to run into each other before they get to the bottleneck
2000bc--codelaws-->monarchy
1850bc--colossus built, building marketplace
1700bc--got 100 tribute from egyptians; polytheism/50 from indians, 25 from chinese
1300bc--marketplace built, bought temple
1250bc--built temple, building great wall (hope I get astonomy soon)
1050bc--monarchy discovered, researching mysticism—revolt and instant monarchy established
1000bc--traded for writing with egyptions, got 100 gold; got 100/200 gold from chinese/indians. I have 573 gold, and ought to have Cop’s built the instant I get astronomy. I hope it shows up as an option…population 4—10 beakers at 70%, discoveries every 16 turns
800bc--got around to exploring south of my city—little 2-square bottleneck 4 spaces away and nasty terrain to move on…
625bc--discovered mysticism—getting astronomy, baby!
200bc--got astonomy, researching mysticism, switched to building cop’s. now time to trade techs with others (didn’t want to boost my science rate unnecessarily…). Got seafaring and construction from egyptians—got alliance! Got 100 gold from chinese; got trade from indians
175bc--cop’s obs built! Bought a library. Hut-->legion
150bc--library built, building caravans! Encountered carthaginians—traded for wheel, warcode, ironworking. Made peace but no alliance—wanted me to attack the egyptians but there is no way those two could have met…
125bc--caravan built—beads headed for babylon, building another; 100 gold from indians
100bc--caravan built—hides headed for delhi or thebes, building another. thebes is along way away—not sure if I should send one there…but I’ll go for it. meet babylonians—traded for philosophy, literacy, and the republic! Revolted. Peace no alliance
75bc--built another caravan—hides and this one’s going to delhi. I’ll build one more (a salt one) because while no one demands salt now, I think someone will later.
50bc--caravan built—changed my mine—it’s got hides—headed for egypt somewhere building great wall (on the chance medicine pops up as a researchable option)
25bc--republic established; meet germans, peace—dump all my knowledge but no alliance
1 AD--researching medicine. 54 beakers at 80%, discoveries every 10 turns; got 75/100 gold from egyptians, indians; no civs to south (yet), everything is north, west, or east, and everyone but the indians have a nice bottleneck to go thru to get to me—then they have to go through the indians! Disbanded warriors.
20ad--stupid AI, indians meet, demand war on chinese (nope), demand 100 gold (nope) and then give me a 100 gold gift. They shoulda stayed in bed
80ad--hides caravan reaches delhi—136 gold
100ad--medicine discovered, researching banking; switched to building shake’s! got 75/50 egypt/chinese
240ad--met by babylonians, but could not get alliance—must wait til more world peace, 75 from indians
280ad--discover banking, researching engineering
400ad--shake’s built, rush-buying aqueduct—starting weluv
420ad--aqueduct built, buying harbor
440ad--harbor built, building bank; after about 8 turns of cat and mouse, my caravan is allowed to pass around the babylonian city of ninevah—on to babylon—what a pain—kept blocking with units
480ad--engineering discovered, researching sanitation
500ad--beads caravan to babylon (in demand); 224 gold
520ad--got university and 75 gold from egyptians; 50 from chinese
560ad--met by egyptians, they asked for 150 gold (nope) and then gave me 150 gold
580ad--discovered sanitation, researching economics, switched from bank to sewer sys
600ad--sewer system built (just in time), buying university
620ad--university built, rush bought a diplomat (indian carvan aheade); hides cargo to thebes (in demand) for a nice 422 gold
640ad--economics discovered, researching theory of grav. Dip commissioned, buying bank. Bribed indian coal caravan for 165 gold. Now dip going to delhi for a None settler (I hope)
660ad--built bank, now building Adam Smith’s (should I have gotten the stock exchange first?). I only have 162 gold. Got 100 more from indians, traded for invention with babylonians
680ad--THAT’S BS!!! The indians expelled my diplomat, which was only TWO (2) squares away from my capital!!! Oh well, won’t have far to go to get back to where he was…
720ad--another hides caravan to thebes for 244 gold this time.
740ad--discover theory of grav, researching democracy; switching to isaac newton’s college
780ad--halted we luv at 21 population—could get some more, but I’ll wait.
820ad--democracy discovered, researching gunpowder, REVOLT!
860ad--democracy established
920ad--gunpowder-->bridge building
940ad--got 100/50 from egypt/chinese; traded for navigation with indians. hmmm; the babylonians said they had no use for my science when I tried to offer them a gift. Carthaginians demanded 200 gold (nope) so they declared war on me. They’ll have to fight through the babylonians and indians
980ad--discovered bridgebuildingchemistry; bought rest of Isaac newton’s college
1000ad--I.N.C. built, buying stock exchange; sold temple (oops!)
1020ad--chemistry-->explosives; built stock exch, building caravans (a one per every 3 turns) 492 beakers at 90%; discoveries every 2 turns
1060ad--got explosives, getting physics
1080ad--got 50/50/75 from egypt/chinese/indians
1100ad--physics-->atomic theory; backed science down to 70% and still every 2 turns
1140ad--atomic theory-->steam engine; bribed NONE babylon settlers for 532 gold
1180ad--steamengine-->railroad
1220ad--railraod-->industrialization
1240ad--bribed NONE indian engineers for 364 gold
1260ad--industrialization-->fuedalism; building factory; got metallurgy, 100 gold from egyptians; 50 gold from chinese
1300ad--fuedalism-->corporation
1360ad--corporation-->refining; science back up to 80% (oops!)
1400ad--refining-->magnetism
1420ad--built factory, building power plant; germans started on darwin’s a few turns ago, but I decided I would let them build it, and then give all my knowledge to them before they complete it. Just want to see how it works out…
1440ad--magnetism-->combustion
1480ad--bribed some more non-engineers from india. I need to watch my science better!
1500ad--combustion-->electricity; adjusted science rate to 90%; 552 beakers
1510ad--powerplant built, building freights (at 1 every 2 turns—48 shields)
1520ad--electricity-->steel
1540ad--steel-->automobile
1560ad--automobile-->electronics; building superhighways; discoveries now every 3 turns—I’ll try to bring the primative surrounding nations up to my knowledge level and try to lower this…got monotheism from bab’s; peace with carthaginians; 50/100/75 from egypt/chinese/indians; superhighways bought; discoveries every 2 turns, now.
1570ad--superhighwasy built; back to freights
1580ad--electronics-->chivalry; chinese almost complete dar’s voy
1590ad--chinese build dar’s voy. They choose communism (what else, duh?) and mass production; get mass production from chinese
1600ad--chivalry-->leadership; can put my science rate back down to 70%
1620ad--leadership-->nuclear fission
1630ad--another NONE indian engineer bribed for 464 gold. Not sure if it’s worth it…
1640ad--nuke fissionnuke power; raised science to 80% and made the two specialist into taxmen so I can maintain 2 turn discoveries
1660ad--nuke power-->refrigeration (either that or flight or another dead-end)
1670ad--get conscription and 50 gold from egyptians; get communism and 100 from chinese
1680ad--refrigeration-->tactics; buying supermarket
1690ad--built supermarket; back to freights; 60 shields—hope offsho pltfrm + man plant is enough for 80
1700ad--tactics->machine tools; changed taxmen to einsteins to keep every 2 turn discovery rate
1720ad--machine tools-->mobile warfare
1730ad--science rate to 90% and 2 einsteins back to taxmen
1740ad--mobile warfare-->miniaturization
1750ad--time to dump all my knowledge again—dropped down to discoveries every 3 turns; Allied with babylonians!!! Gave me 50 gold. 100/100/75 from egypt/chinese/indians
1752ad--miniaturization-->computers; bought offshore platform
1754ad--offshore platform built; building colosseum
1756ad--computers-->robotics; changing to research lab; bought research lab; accepted 350 from egyptians to declare war on the germans (they are far away)
1758ad--research lab built, building hydro plant; made my 3 scientist taxmen; 70% science
1760ad--robotics-->flight (had to); buying manu plant; dropping science down to start we luv
1762ad--manu plant built; 87 shields! Building freights; changing some landscape because I have 2 forest squares not on rivers. I’m going to make 2 river sqares into forests, and then irrigate the 2 non-river forests into plains/grassland to get more trade arrows
1768ad--flight-->the laser
1770ad--halted we luv at 27 population (had to so I could keep getting discoveries every 2 turns)
1772ad--laser-->radio
1776ad--radio-->advanced flight
1780ad--advanced flight-->rocketry; 604 for a settler (none) from indians
1782ad--got 100/150 from egypt/chinese
1784ad--rocketry-->recycling (no space flight option)
1788ad--recycling-->space flight; sold aqueduct; I guess 27 pop is enough (but I could get 30, now)
1792ad--space flight-->plastics; starting apollo—should have enough caravans; sold sewers
1794ad--apollo built; building SS’s
1796ad--plastics-->superconductor
1800ad--superconductor-->genetic engineering; trade for genetic engineering from babylonians
1802ad--researcing fusion power
1806ad--fusion power-->environmentalism
1812ad--environmentalism-->theology; science rate going down, now. Won’t report new techs now.
1820ad--swapping the forest squares onto river improved me to 102 shields and a lot of arrows
1824ad--15 stucturals; beginning components; only need 2 caravans
1836ad--6 components; starting on modules—I really wanted to land before 1850!
1842ad--last module built; launch—ETA: 1857. Starting to build defensive units
1857ad--arrive AC; Cunobelin the Terrible (45%), pop: 3,780,000; score: 352 – shoulda built darwin’s, I guess…

How did a start so good turn out so unextraordinary?


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by vik to assure Aurelius that vik's email address is valid, despite the dubious domain name contained wherewithin. (edited January 23, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by vik (edited January 23, 2000).]

	24-01-2000 16:01									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks for the logs guys...

Grigor: LOL I love your style

vik: Just a thought, did you consider holding off founding your city until you had tipped another couple of huts? That might just have given you the extra impetus you needed.

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited January 24, 2000).]

	24-01-2000 18:58									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

SG-1,

The short answer to your question is "no."

At my current OCC experience level (which I estimate at "low"), I may have a mental block about waiting to found the city. I really believe the earlier the better. I've heard lots of people say that 3500bc is still not too late to found it, but I just can't anticipate myself having a good game if *I* found that late.

I'll probably try a game where I force myself to wait to found the city just so I can see how I do and possibly prove to myself that a 3500bc founding date isn't too big of a deal.

Does anyone think it's worth it to bribe settlers/engineers (if possible) instead of building? In my case, I didn't really miss the cash too much, but I probably got more than I needed (3 NONE engineers/2 NONE settlers).

	24-01-2000 20:55									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

If your cash is so good that you can afford settlers & engineers without hurting you must be doing something wrong - cash IMO is for rush buying city improvements and incremental rushing caravans (of which you cannot have too many).
Stress on IMO - I do not consider myself to be any kind of expert here!

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	25-01-2000 00:02									#10
	Put an end to popups!

SG-1,

Interesting. I just wanted to try it and debate about it here. Some of the pros, as I see them:

In that particular game, I was not really lacking money. I don't really feel I missed out rush-buying too many (if any) critical improvements.

Based on Aurelius's post, I experimented with taxmen in order to both keep the science rate flowing and maximize my income. Plus, I never had to build a colosseeum. The tribute/gift river kept flowing, too.

By bribing two NONE engineers, you save yourself 2 citizens in your city, and 2 gold to pay for them. If you make these two citizens into taxmen, I think they can probably recoup your expenses you had to use to bribe them.

My thoughts on caravans...if you're rate of scientific advance is every two turns, and you already have your 3 trade routes established, then you only need between 34 and 44 caravans, depending on how many shields your city produces--assuming 10-11 caravans for apollo program, 2-3 caravans for each of the 6 components, and 4-5 caravans for each of your 3 modules.

The only way I could justify building more (when gold is not a problem) is to send a group to a far-off city and maybe get a scientific advance or two only one turn apart.

flame away...

	25-01-2000 01:59									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Vik,

Man, 1857 is a great score! I had a game this weekend that involved a super starting position and I thought I'd get an 1850 AC date. I used all of Paul's concepts including Science advances and not build any pollution controls. But I made some careless mistakes and early 1800's looked like mid 1800's and then I made some more mistakes and mid 1800's looked like late 1800's and then I got crypted by my greed!

Not building pollution improvements must be accompanied by some exact management of engineers. Going into the space race without 80 shields is a killer without pollution control.

The other problem I experienced with Paul's science progression involved having no choice but to build Nuke Fission and Power right after flight and prior to space. I think I'm going back to "First NF and NP then flight!" Unless there is a trick I don't know about concerning science progression? I had so much dead end science!

Glad to hear you used the micromanaging scheme of taxman. What way did you find to determine the cut off point? I don't quite count beakers! But I do err on the side of science I assume you understand this concern of mine, but I've seen these formula's on the cost of science and wondered dubiously if there were any more exact ways to manage the specialists than beaker guestimation by eye sight? (at 1200+ beaker!)

I was fascinated by your decision to buy the two none engineers. That must be expensive! I tried to buy a settler in my last game but it was over 600gd--dat's a lot! And then I tried a none settler that was obviously closer to it's home city--1200 gd! Usually my city is the first to get explosives so the question is moot. I just build the engineers and to heck with the forbidding bribing cost. But then I thought about your situation a bit. It is possible to have a poor ally and using good timing, give the ally explosives with a Trireme/dip/freight hugging the allies coast. Might get a cheap none or two engineer! So how much did you pay for those nones?

Like yourself, I labor over the decision to wander or build the city. The big advantage to wandering is that you eliminate black space from which come haughty barbarians! I like to eliminate as much of their peskiness as possible. Then there is the tribute factor--the more none units the better. And there is another advntage to wandering ... finding bottlenecks to keep out annoying allies and future foes. This is a big advantage.

Sorry, Aurelious the Verbose has returned. I'm planning to post that crypt game--though shamefacedly. But I'll send you the position and maybe we can compare logs....really should have gotten late 1800's but I was despairing my many errors and the two turn structures due to pollution--yeah yeah yeah

Au

	25-01-2000 02:52									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Not building pollution control requires that you are finished or almost finished improving your land before you build a factory. After building the factory you have a good chance to get pollution almost every turn so your engineers will be on cleaning duty. I often delay my factory a bit to finish improving the land.

On determining the science rate and taxmen needed: here's what I do: after I finish Newton and get science every two turns I set all surplus citizens to scientists. Then I set the science rate to the lowest percentage that still gives two turns and then I set scientists to taxmen until I just get two turns. After discovering I new tech I see if I still get two turns; if not I set taxmen to scientists until I get two turns. If setting all taxmen to scientists still doesn't get you to two turns you need to raise the science rate.

I prefer to wander around a bit first and get some huts before I settle. This also gives me the opportunity to see if there are any better city sites around. And remember, at the start turns go in 50 year increments, so 3500 BC is only 10 turns.

Vik, I read your latest log and have some remarks on how to improve:

First, I read that you have two buffalo. That may sound nice but in OCC you are better of with trade specials such as gold, wine or spice.

Also, you built your library after Copernicus? Try to get it earlier in your next OCC; I prefer to get it right after Colossus. You might also try to get republic/WLTCD earlier in your next game. Having a size 12 city BC really helps a lot. Waiting until after Shakespeare to get to 12 is too late in my opinion. If you could do that in your next game a landing in the first half of the 1800s should definately be possible.

	25-01-2000 03:28									#13
	Got spare money?

Paul - I'm curious about you not using Mass Transit for pollution control. Why exactly do you do this? Usually if I have a pollution problem I have an obsolete unit I can disband and then just buy the Mass Transit, which is only a one turn loss. If I have extra gold I don't see why I shouldn't do this...

On a side note, I had an excellent OCC game this weekend but of course I wasn't keeping a log on this particular game. I wandered until about 3700 when I found a magical 4 whale spot (wish I'da saved the game there). I also had the fortune of quickly meeting 5 other civs and getting Monarchy, BW and Trade quite early (not to mention some tribute ). I had the Collossus by about 2300 and delivered four caravans by 20 AD. I think the early caravan delivery helped immensely. I got sidetracked by the Aztecs once but was only at war for about 10 turns the whole game; this was also quite helpful as I didn't lose any caravans that had to take a relatively long overland route. Anyway, I might have landed sooner but I got Electronics and decided that the Hoover Dam was a good choice since I couldn't build a hydro plant. Oh, I also built Mass Transit . Even with these side projects I still managed to get Apollo by about 1860 and got to AC in 1897.

	25-01-2000 04:47									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks for replies!

Aurelius -- verbose is beautiful! To answer, I got babylonian settlers for 532 gold, indian engineers for 364, 464, and 600 and something. I think two of the engineers were bargains. The third, not so much... All were very close to my city (4-6 spaces away). And besides, after Shake's, I seem to have plenty of money (sell off improvements, lux rate to 0%)

It's not too much engineer micro-management when you are wiping out pollution. 2 engineers sent to the same square instantly wipes it out. And since you won't get pollution every turn, sometimes you can help the settler do whatever he's doing. The more ocean that surrounds your city, the less pollution you will have, it seems.

Paul, I really liked the buffaloes for quicker improvement buying, but I will defer to your experience and seek the trade specials. I wish everything was 4 whales, but I'm waiting to get better at OCC before I download that one.

I have ignored your advice about libraries and when to get to pop-12 for the last time. That's the 2nd time (out of two) that I've gotten these elements backwards. My goal for OCC is a sub-1820 landing, and I really thought I had it last game.

And Crow@biteme.com brought out a great point for which, up until now, I had to read between the lines to really get. As soon as you get trade, stop what you're doing, or finish what you're doing, and build at least 3 caravans to get early trade routes started. "helped immensely" is the best way to describe this.

If anyone wants it that game, it's really a fun game, provided you ally with the indians. I may have given too much away in my log for it to be a comparison game, and you would have to start when I saved it, at 3950bc after tipping a hut and getting archers.

[This message has been edited by vik (edited January 24, 2000).]

	26-01-2000 03:22									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

These days when I start a log, I put up two pieces of shared knowledge for reference sake in my word file. Here is the latest OCC Super start.
I'm sure there is loglapse as I'm prone to over excitement and late night OCC sessions:

Using Paul's Science Priority and not using anti-pollution improvements: Bronze, Monarchy, Writing, Trade, Construction, Republic,
Astronomy, Medicine, Sanitation, University, Banking, Gravity, Economics, Explosives, Refrigeration, Railroad, Automobile, Computers,
Robotics, Space Flight, Plastics, Superconductor, Fusion Power.

Using Inca911:
Manipulation of Special Terrain Squares

You can terraform these special terrain squares into different special terrains as follows:

Buffalo: Mine to Pheasant
Coal: Transform to Buffalo
Fruit: Transform to Wheat
Furs: Transform to Oil(in Desert)
Pheasant: Irrigate to Buffalo
Musk Ox: Transform to Oasis
Gems: Mine to Pheasant, Transform to Buffalo
Gold: Transform to Coal
Iron: Transform to Wine--very useful!
Ivory: Transform to Musk Ox
Oasis: Transform to Buffalo
Oil(in Desert): Transform to Wheat
Oil(in Glacier): Transform to Furs
Peat: Mine to Pheasant, Transform to Buffalo
Silk: Irrigate to Wheat
Spice: Tranform to Wheat
Wheat: Mine to Silk--very useful!
Wine: Transform to Wheat


Calypso of the Greeks

I'm trying to do that Year-Fund-Details log (I liked Crow's log in the OCC fortnight result thread)Brother! Just saw the strange incompatibility
of Word with Apolyton site... so imagine those accented a's as a going to arrow

Incredible position: after one turn, I see 3 whales and then wheat. So I terraformed the woods in the ideal location and then settled the city
Athens in 3750. Alpha/Horseback/Bronze.

3900-0-Hut warrior code-doesn't take long for a bit of annoying bad luck
3700-1-ResearchingàCeremonial
3250-9-CeremonialàCode
2850-26-Lot of whales in this map! Code of LawsàMonarchy-three warriors and colossus was started a bit ago 22shields ago (due to a mess up
I lost a turn-already blundering along)
2650-32-Hut archer
2400-42-Size 3
2350-Hut-I'm actually not going to tip the hut yet-too close to Monarchy!
2300-48-Monarchy!àWriting-Hut Wheel! (damn I like that decision to hold off)
2250-48-Est. Monarchy
1950-66-Hut-(holding off again due to impending writing)
1850-73-WritingàCurrency-Hut-Currency!
1800-76-ResearchingàTrade!
1400-100-Size 4-still no contact. This may be a big fat island of us alone
1350-24-TradeàMapmaking (on a funny island or sprawling peninsula) COLOSSUSàlibrary
925-20-Map-MakingàMasonry-Library-Temple Growin' too fast
900-24-10/70/20
875-24-Hummm… 20/70/10 Size
800-34-Temple-caravan
750-37-MasonryàConstruction
650-49-Caravan/beadsàtrireme (should think about coliseum hard decision!) Ah! Not quite an empty island. Met Chinese and traded for Iron
Working and Mysticism. Ignored their demands of science and then we agreed to peace. Offered alliance and they affirmed! Gifted us 150gd
Along the way, I saw a good bottleneck. Do I dare explore more or situate myself-off to explore. Building a trireme! Near by land over the
channel.
575-132-triremeàMarketplace or Coliseum
525-----ConstructionàLiteracy
450-12-ColiseumàCamels again
275-11-Hut-Bridgebuilding
250-60-LiteracyàRepublic Trade for 50gd (Beads no longer have trading route!) War with Japanese-didn't want Polytheism!
200-60-Hut-Mathematics
125-62-Hut-Astronomy (Damn trireme turned out wise!) CaravanàMarketplace
50-65-Contact-Celts-Ignored trades and demands-Offered Alliance and they affirmed (no gift though) Damn good trireme and warrior
1-AD 75-RepublicàPhilosophy-Revolution
20-70-Gifted 75gd from Chinese-Gifted them Construction Completed MarketplaceàAqueduct
60-120 Est. Republic (mistake as I have too many units out picking up huts and making contact-well-a trade off!)
80-63-Hut Banking
100-224-Contact with Aztec-War Trade caravan/Dye arrives in Shanghai 166gd
120-469-Caravan/Spice-254gd (wouldn't have used it! But Philosophy is important at this stage)
140-504-PhilosophyàMedicineàEngineering "To Disband or not to Disband…"
320-Traded with Chinese for Pottery and was gifted 75 and gave Celts philosophy Commencing WLTCD
460-65-CopernicusàBank and size 12 city
500-EngineeringàSanitation BankàSewer
600-SanitationàInvention Finished -Just killed barb leader
620-286-SeweràShakes--Killed second Barb leader-Traded for Seafaring
740-554-InventionàDemocracy Sold Coliseum
760-----ShakespeareàHarbor
860-78-DemocracyàGunpowder-and established same turn! Commencing WLTPD!
880-46-Sold Temple finally(?)-HarboràCity Walls
920-204-Traded for Polytheism and got gifted 150 from Chinese and got cease fire from Aztecs Traded for Feudalism-Lots of attitude from Celts
940-50-GunpowderàNavigation City Wallsàcaravan
1000-32-NavigationàUniversity
1060-34-UniversityàEconomics
1080-Caravan/coal
1120-104-EconomicsàTheory
1200-122-TheoryàChemistry
1220----UniversityàEconomics
1240-204-ChemistryàMetallurgy
1300-274-MetallurgyàExplosives
1320-322-ExplosivesàPhysics 126 trade/coal Commenced Issac Newton
1360-480-PhysicsàMagnetism
1420-546-MagnetismàSteam
1460-576-SteamàElectricity
1500-945-ElectricityàConscription 336 trade/gems
1520-1173-ConscriptionàRefridgeration
1530-56-Issacsàengineer
1540-241-Refridgeration-Railroad
-350-RailroadàAtomic Theory
1580-443-Atomic TheoryàIndustrialization Caravanà2nd engineer
1600-494-IndustrializationàCorporation 2nd engineeràSupermarket
1620-497-CorporationàElectronics SupermarketàFreight
1640-486-ElectronicsàSteel FreightàFreight
1650-481-Commencing WLTPD
1660-355-SteelàChivalry
1680-299-ChivalryàRefining Coastal FortressàFreight
1700-196-RefiningàCombustion Size 28
1720-344-CombustionàAutomobile
1740-67-AutomobileàMass Production (Freight=5)
1752-339-MassàLeadership SuperhighwayàTransport
1756-496-LeadershipàNuclear Fission 2 huts one barbs and one 50 gd-One dead camel
1760-808-Nuclear FissionàTactics
1764------TacticsàTheology Caravan trade for 168gd
1768-1033-TheologyàMachine Tools
1772-1358-MachineàMobile
17----------MobileàMiniaturization
17----------MiniaturizationàComputers
1784-1532-ComputersàRobotics Offshore Platform
1782--------RoboticsàFlight Research Lab
1790-2449-Freight for 810!
1792-2453-FlightàNuclear Power FactoryàManufacturing plant
1796-2574-NuclearPoweràRadio manufacturing PlantàFreight Beads to Aztecs 525
1800-2714-RadioàAdvance Flight
1804-2840-AdvanceàRocketry
1808-2966-RocketryàLaser
1812-2377-LaseràSpace (Freight only thirteen)
1816-3187-SpaceàPlastics (14 Freight) àNuclear Plant
1820--------Nuclear PlantàApollo
1824-1629-PlasticsàSuperApollo (Structures-Freight=15 Shields=80 supporting six units Food box full-no pollution and two engineers
1832-2309-Super-->Amphibious (4-0-0)
1840-2961-Amphibious-->Fusion
1848-3613-FusionàCombined 100/0/0
1851-4181- We're the Weathiest!
1861-3853-Launched!
1876 ETA

I made some strange Science trades given to get capital. (Mono and Poly) Also, I didn't quite follow the Science progression when it came to
Nuclear Power. I wanted that Plant. Near the end, I didn't quite have enough Freight before Space. So I had to delay several turns before I built
the Nuke Plant and Apollo (my only improvement.) In hindsight, as usual, I can see many better tacts! But feel free to comment. That's why I'm
posting my error ridden log.

	26-01-2000 03:32									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I could have sworn that I replied to this in a different thread!

*Special situation* If you are short of caravans, have enough cash, and are producing less than 80 shields: you can buy a temple from scratch for 160, switch to structurals at -50% -> 20 shields, and get it built with 60 production. This will save your disbands for when you really need them.


(BTW - I just recalled that you can deliver caravans into a space ship at 50 shields vs disbanding at 25. I don't think I have ever remembered to do that.)

	26-01-2000 03:57									#17
	Tired of ads?

Hey Sten,

You did see it twice. And I replied to your reply and you can pull the same disappearing act on me...

I meant to stay within this thread with these cumbersome logs. So I edited the other message with a 'sorry' and reposted here.

Hey are you going to submit the next Fortnight position? I'm sold on edited maps. That worked out good. A scenario can be made with a lot of creativity. I rarely play positions where my city is so isolated. Besides, it gives us a small chance to compete with Mr Big I like that he brought his caravan in the wrong direction in the tundra and still beat most of us handily. In fortnight one, I thought a trireme was better than camel through the tundra, but there are safe huts up there to be tipped (Barbs have a way of just disappearing.)

Au

	26-01-2000 04:21									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

It was fun to build the map, and I would be more than happy to do it again. I'll post on the other tread for reviews and critiques. Perhaps, I'll end up a better scenario builder than OCCer!

(I still am laughing at getting blown-up in my own game!)

	26-01-2000 04:39									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

You shall never build a "fair" map that is better than an OCCer. Unless of course you give them no exit from the top of the map. mwhahahahaha... Although I am pretty sure Paul could beat it.
___
CtG

	26-01-2000 05:10									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

CtG - the Novy tournament game was just like that, you had to build on the pole then get maps and migrate. It was tough!