08-05-2001 11:39									#1
	Would you be willing to pay for the Medpack II ? Support Apolyton

This is something I have thought about for a while now, and this would be as good of a time as any to talk about it.
Ctp2 sold at a suggested retail price of $60 American when it first came out. To be honest, it was probably not a very good value at that price given its initial settings. If you have bought the game for less than this amount, like the $40 chips-n-bits price, and you find that the Medpack II makes Ctp2 a game worth paying $60 for, would you be willing to send the difference to an account that would be divided up among the contributers to the mod? Or send whatever amount that you think the game deserves after its Medpack II alterations.
None of us who worked on the mod were doing it for money, and it will be distributed as freeware, but I wonder if people would be willing to send a gratuity as a way of expressing their thanks for a work which brings them a lot of enjoyment? (A gratuity is another name for the tip you leave the waiter at a restaurant.)
The Medpack II easily has over a thousand man-hours invested in it, most all of it from busy students and professionals. And I know that sometimes they would have rather been doing something else other than honoring their commitment to the mod.
If there is a lot of support for sending a gratuity, then I could get together with someone who knows about such transactions and work out a way of sending and distributing the funds. Right now I just want to get a feel for how people might respond to the idea.

	08-05-2001 16:33									#2
	Tired of ads?

I think that MedpackII should always be free of charge but there should be a possibility to pay for modmakers. There could be text in Readme and in download page that if you like this mod please pay as much as you like to the Wes. And Wes would then give part of the money to the other modmakers.

I am a little bad person to comment this because I live in Finland and it would cost me ummm about 15-20$ to send money as cheque or change finnish marks(my currency) to dollars. So if I would like to pay you 20$ it would cost me about 30(35)-40 dollars. So it would be quite expensive to me Sorry modmakers.

I have made few years ago a program that costed a little(less than 10$) to the user and it gave me a great satisfaction when I got my first pay. Less than 10$ is not much(especially to the payer) but I saw that someone was willing to pay and it gave me "power" to continue developing my program and actually I did other program too. I just had very little audience. Maximum amount of possible users was about 100-120 so that program did not make me rich But I liked doing those programs!

So if you add text "Pay if you want" to the readmes and webpage it would not make me feel bad. It would be more than ok to me and I suppose to many others too.

Jani

	08-05-2001 16:35									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Great Mod, but I'd then play CtP I, with its very-good AI, for me, or play SMAC. Or even better, some PBEM. But Wes, I hope you really never make something like this. Markos would be in schock then.

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Solver the "Running Beer" - http://www.aok.20m.com

	08-05-2001 22:39									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It wouldn't bother me if the site where I downloaded the mod from contained a big flashing banner or the like to the tune of "Help Wes Make CTPII Better And Donate!!" or "Want More Modpacks? Wes Needs Your Support!!" . Hook it up to a card friendly pay site with your own account...This would allow people the option of donating towards current and future creations...Apart from that, how would the $$ be distributed? You have used works by other editors here too I think...So if you were to start charging for your mods, or accepting donations, then they might start looking for their own recompense...
But it would discourage me if I had to give you a credit card number just to check out the mod. Also, $20 U.S. is about $40 Australian right now. Considering CTPII is goin for about $70 here at the moment.....I'd probably invest in some graphic add ons for my 3d object creators instead...and make the graphics better in the game for my own enjoyment.
Sorry dude. Love your work. But I'm just bein' honest here.

	08-05-2001 23:03									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Please Wes, dont get any idea's

	08-05-2001 23:24									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Firstly, I have to say that the MedPack II will be great, and be great because of all the work put into it, and I fully understand how long these things take in terms of man-hours.
However I don't think that after paying however much for a poor CTP2, people will be willing to pay more to make it right. I have to agree with Fuzzball, maybe banners could be put up, but to be honest, who'd pay? I wouldn't, despite a real appreciation of the labour. (Damn SLIC )
A gratuity might work, but its a lot of hassle, for such a small amount. Not that you aren't aware of it (I hope), but it does cut close to the bone of the Civ-Site Decency Act, which Apolyton is now a re-founder member of.

Finally, I believe that the MedPack II will be the mod, with everyone using their own versions of it, but if people see that mod-makers are getting money from their creations, they will be more reluctant to try the mods out, in case there is a paying obligation.
Sorry

Ben

	09-05-2001 01:06									#7
	Remove this text

Well HELL NO!!!!! All mods are designed for play for free. Lets face it, Med Mod only makes CTP2 play the way it should have(well only sorta anywyas). Med Pack isnt a full game and so I wouldnt pay a penny for it. It really isnt an expansion either. And personally the changes made dont seem all that significant to me(only a matter of opinion though). Unless Med Pack 2 was a complete OVERHAUL that TOTALLY changed the game I wouldnt pay for it. Now if you made your own Civ game based on the ideas from the med mods I would probably buy it if it is good.

	09-05-2001 01:26									#8
	Remove this text

While I don't think you should charge for it, I think that if you were to ask for a contribution of say 10 dollars it would be ok. Make it clear that the contribution is not required though. I think there would be plenty of people (myself included) who would be willing to donate 10 dollars in appreciation for all the hard work the modmakers have done. But that's just my opinion, and there might be some politics involved that you might should think about as well.

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DO, OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY - Yoda

	09-05-2001 01:41									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

...and how will the money be divided up? Wes probably put in more hours than anyone else, but Locutus and Gedrin should be given psychological compensation for their SLIC, as its been troublesome, whereas (no offense meant) some people's contributions though helpful and worthwhile, were not as large.

	09-05-2001 02:03									#11
	Support Apolyton

I think Fuzzball makes the best point. The MedPack2 is based on the MedPack1 which in turn is based on the Apolyton Pack which is based on CD's mod, and several other mods have also been included. I very much doubt that they'd all allow Wes to ask money for a mod based on their work.

	09-05-2001 03:00									#12
	Remove this text

I started helping Wes out with no thought of compensation. I just wanted to make the game better. Though, I must admit since I want to get into games programming, this is a good way to "get ya name out there". Basically, if I do a good mod (and I think the concensus is that Diplomod and the other mods I've done for Med Pack 2 are) then the gamers that use it get to know my name. In the future when I'm writing games, it is in my favour that these gamers remember that I wrote good mods for CTP2.

Anyways, personally I'm not in it for the money. Maybe make the mod Postcard-ware or something so the players can send the makers a postcard or something. *shrug*

Just my 2 cents.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

	09-05-2001 03:30									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I don't know much about e-commerce, and I did not know about a civ decency act, so maybe this concept would not work anyway.
As I said in the initial post, the mod will be freeware, with contributions suggested, but not in any way required. I also said that any monies received would be divided up among the contributers, and not just go to myself. I was not expecting this to be a big money-maker, but I thought it would be nice if we collected enough for Wouter, Paul, Harlan and the others to get a nice meal or something for their work.
Their may be some problem if someone wants credit for an idea used in the mod, or if they want money for a single unit or something used in the mod. I had planned on sending Morgoth a portion of the proceeds since he made so many units for the mod.
As far as Ctp1 connections, I believe that the concepts I carried forward in the Medpack II were all my own things, and the game-balancing was started from scratch.
Thinking about it, we would have to take in several hundred dollars in order to make anyone's share other than my own worthwhile, so I will probably just let the idea go.
I do think that the difference between the original game and the Medpack will be comparable to an expansion pack for a regular game, ala Brood War or Conflicts in Civ (and I know it will play out better than Conflicts in Civ).

Oh well, at least I put something out which brought some life to the forum.
I visited the civ III forum yesterday for the first time in months, and that place looks like the OT.

	09-05-2001 04:39									#14
	Got spare money?

Good idea letting the idea go I think. My guess is you'd get a call or a letter from an Activision attorney. Go back and read the terms of agreement for the Program Utilities. In fact, I'd email MarkG and ask him to delete this entire thread (but then again maybe I'm just paranoid)!

	09-05-2001 16:16									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I meant if I were Wes I would request having this deleted so no one at Activision could stumble upon it.

	09-05-2001 23:43									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Activision woudn't be seen dead in a Civ forum, they'd get flamed so much that any thread they posted in woudn't need sticking to the top of the forum, it'd stay there of its own accord

I don't think that any voluntary contribution actually goes against the rules of the Program Utilities, or the CDA ( http://apolyton.net/misc/cda.shtml ), but its cutting close

EDIT: I just realised that the CDA says nothing about selling Mods or Scenarios, but I'm sure I read it somewhere in the Apolyton "About" section, that a Civ2 site sold rights to sell a CD of fan-created scenarios to someone, and got a complete slating. Anyway... right decision Wes I think.
[This message has been edited by Immortal Wombat (edited May 09, 2001).]

	09-05-2001 23:52									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

If the money provided to Wes was in the form of a donation, for gratitude towards the amount of labour required, and not actually payment for distribution of an add-on to an Activision product. Then I don't think there would be any legal issues. And this is all Wes has suggested I think. Recognition for the huge amount of individual labour he has put in to making our gameplay more enjoyable. But I'm no lawyer, so don't be quotin' me on that. Apart from all that anyways....how's a corporation going to get $$ out of a student? hehe. Students have no money.

	10-05-2001 00:21									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

...but Wes is 35

	10-05-2001 03:28									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Hey. I've got plenty of stories I could tell. I've been running a web site for a couple of years and have learned a few things from the misfortunes of others. Several guys I know in Germany got their sites shut down by court order for having images captured from German TV stations on their sites. I know a guy in the Netherlands who had the police actually seize all his computer equipment and all media (CDs and floppies) because he had pics from a certain magazine on his site. The mag sued him. My host server had some images from a different mag on his site here in the US. Lawyers for the mag threatened him with everything short of hanging and said that even if he removed the offending images they still retained the right to sue him...unless he agreed to remove the images AND put a banner ad on his site advertising their mag for something like five years. And they have to approve the ad placement and will monitor all of his sites for the next five years to make sure he complies.

It's easy to stay under the radar but the big numero uno thing that will make you a blip is to be selling something. Whether that be a membership or access or an actual physical product (the guy in the Netherlands was selling CDs), that's the quickest way to get unwanted attention. If you're not selling something then you usually, but not always, get left alone. The German guys I mentioned were not selling and neither (as far as I know) were all the Belgian Napster users who's homes were raided and computers seized. On another thread someone asked about copyright violation problems making sprites from images from other games. As long as you're not selling the mod then there wouldn't (shouldn't) be a prob, but if you sell the mod and the wrong people find out...

If you solicit donations then you'd be pushing it IMHO. I'd also omit any mention of "thanks to _______ for the PSP crack!" Make it a little more vague. Remember, you're putting your name on this thing and it could be floating all over the internet for a long time. But if you like living on the edge then put a clip of Alyssa Milano in your intro vid and see how long it takes for mama Lin to give you a call!

The big bad magazine dropped the lawsuit against the Dutch guy when they found out he wasn't even breaking even on the CDs. But they did seize all the CDs and had his entire web site and all of their images WIPED OFF HIS HARD DRIVE before returning his equipment to him. I know guys this stuff has happened to so I wouldn't take the legal stuff too lightly.

	10-05-2001 04:00									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

1) i would gladly donate/whatever you want to call it. these guys are already in the who-to-sent-free-apolyton-t-shirts-whenever-we-get-to-make-them list

2) i would like only to see files being in the "it's free, send 10$ if you feel like supporting the creators" model

3) the CDA has nothing to do with the creators charging for files.

4) even if it's "donationware", you might have issues with activision. check the legal text that appaears before the scenario editor

	10-05-2001 04:24									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Markos, make mine an XL.

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Rommell to a sub-commander outside Tobruk: "Those Australians are in there somewhere. But where? Let's advance and wait till they shoot, then shoot back."

	11-05-2001 20:09									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I wouldn't mind paying, If its distributed as freeware and
you have the option to pay or not, I think I would send
something, If I played with the mod. It would be honorable
to do so if thats what the Mod makers wanted. I think the old turn based strategy players have inhearant honor. It would be interesting for you to post the number of downloads vs the number of payments.

	13-05-2001 19:20									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

P.S. BTW I'm only still hanging around occasionally just for this MOD
to try and give CTP II a second chance, I really wanted to like this
game.