21-01-2000 21:23									#1
	OCC: Americans can start with Monarchy Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hi, I've noticed that the Americans are predisposed to getting Code of Laws as one of their free techs starting out. Last night I actually started with Ceremonial Burial, Alphabet, Code of Laws, and Monarchy! (under deity, v242).
Unfortunately, there were no huts nearby, so I never managed to get any NONE units (the first civ I ran into demanded tribute right away, and ended up killing me a few turns later). Anyways, Paul's strategy guide doesn't mention anything about starting techs, but it strikes me that Paul could shave a few turns off of his record landing if he was able to switch to Monarchy in 4000BC.
This is my first post (I've been browsing for the past couple of weeks), so sorry if this has already been discussed.

Tom

	22-01-2000 10:16									#2
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I would have to say you got randomly lucky. I just started, as the Americans, for 10 straight times (and played no turns--just restarted to see what initial techs I got).

7 times--irrigation, mining, roads (standard)
1 time -- standard plus bronze working
1 time -- standard plus alphabet
1 time -- standard plus alphabet and masonry

I think it has to do with where you start out. If you start on initially bad terrain, you are more likely to be given some techs.

I hope you saved the 4000 bc game -- maybe some will deem it worthy of being a comparison game.

	21-01-2000 23:59									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

I do have a saved game, but like I said things were a bit tough without any huts nearby (the computer must have given me Monarchy out of pity). But there was a decent starting city location one square away (whale, wine, fish), and science was really rocking before the germans killed me off (colossus was built in 1650 and I was almost finished researching Republic in 1500BC).

As for the civ not having an influence on starting tech, I'm not sure. I just did a test myself - 40 times starting as Americans, 40 times as Vikings (lucky I have a fast computer)

Americans - Code of Law - 8 times
Code of Law and Ceremonial Burial - 4 times

Vikings - Code of Law - 3 times
Code of Law and Ceremonial Burial - 1 time

On the border of being statistically significant. One thing is for sure, actually getting Monarchy is pretty uncommon.

Whether it really helps or not, I'll stick with Americans as my OCC civ of choice for now.

	22-01-2000 00:13									#4
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If you want you can email me that 4000 BC save. The city site sounds ok; not great but good enough to get a decent AC landing date. The lack of huts may be a problem, but I would like to give it a try. My email is paulvandenbelt@planet.nl

	22-01-2000 00:29									#5
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I'm glad that got Paul's attention -- i'd like to see him try that, too (no offense, Tom). Also, Paul, if you're willing, I posted my first ever log under the "OCC: BC 3500- AC 1939" thread started by Genghis. I would appreciate any commentary you might find suitable to add. I didn't know where to post it, since I'm not in the fortnight competition, so I put it there.

Back to Tom: Actually, I thought your impromptu experiment was more statistically significant than mine. I also have a fast computer, but unfortuntately, that computer doesn't have a very fast operator.

When you say the americans got CerBur and CodeLaws, I'm assuming they also got Alphabet in there, too?

Just imagine getting both Monarchy AND 4-trade starting location! I think when I have some spare time, I will try to come up with some OCC starting locations (generated at random), for use here. If I find a good one, I'll see about submitting it.

I'm not sure exactly how much I would be able to describe it, so I'll go back to the archives and see if any answers are there, or at least rely on Paul to let me know what I potentially can and cannot say about them.

	22-01-2000 01:10									#6
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There was a thread on the Multiplayer forum that cited statistics indicating that your chances of a poor starting location (and, therefore, more starting techs in single player) increased when you picked a civ lower on the list (white = best start, purple = worst). Since the Vikings are in slot #3 and the Americans are in slot #5, this would go along with that theory.

Oh, a link to the thread:
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum2/H...html?date=15:36

Edited to put the link on a single line (I hope).
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited January 21, 2000).]

	22-01-2000 02:03									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'd agree with DaveV there is a correlation between "Slot #" and the number of techs / starting location. But it is more complicated than that. I just did a test with Carthaginians (orange, which is a lower slot), and Persians (same blue as Americans).

in 20 starts,

Persians - Code of Law and Ceremonial Burial - 1 time

Carthaginians - didn't get Code of Law even once

Although the Carthaginians got a lot of tech (4 quite often), they seemed predisposed to getting Mysticism or The Wheel as a second order (with a prerequisit) tech.

I expect if someone spent all day just starting games (and no, I'm not volunteering), a pattern of starting tech preference would emerge for each civ. But the best combo for OCC would be Alphabet, Code of Laws and Ceremonial Burial.

Paul, I'll email the 4000BC save to you tonight. Any other takers? It's kind of neat to see Alphabet, Code of Laws, Monarchy, and Ceremonial Burial in your science advisor list in 4000BC. Oh, something interesting, if you start your revolution in 4000 BC before you found your city, you'll drop right back into Despotism the next turn.

	22-01-2000 02:15									#8
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ya i've seen this before.not neccessarily turquoise though.When I've gotten it or lots of techs it usually means my terrain is awful or am totally isolated or both.Or a hostile civ(mongols,zulus) are very close by.
I was able to hold a successful revolution before my first though
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited January 21, 2000).]

	22-01-2000 02:31									#9
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Vik, I saw that you posted your log. Unfortunately I haven't had much time to look at it and I couldn't give any good advise if I just had a short look at it; maybe I'll have some time this weekend.

Tom, I will make your game available for download from my site when I get it.

	22-01-2000 02:51									#10
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Tom, please send me a copy!

My e-mail address is in my profile.

Thanks!

Carolus

	22-01-2000 13:22									#11
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Maybe Paul can post it on his page?

I've got a notion that it may also be related to the disposition of the civ as defined in the rules.txt file. Just a random thought, not like I've fiddled with leader dispositions.

By the way, regarding starting positions I agree that it appears they are placed in order and the "first" ones take up the better sites. I'm playing a OCC game as Greeks and actually got a polar start! It was right next to a hut and a corner connection to the main continent, but that is the first polar start I'd ever seen!
[This message has been edited by don Don (edited January 22, 2000).]

	22-01-2000 14:03									#12
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try loading a few small map games as purple.You will eventually see polar starts with no landbridge.I will never take purple in a small map MP game again.

	22-01-2000 17:24									#13
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Monarchy game available for download in zipped and unzipped version.

	26-01-2000 15:04									#14
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I had a go at this. I didn't bother to make a log, but I remember starting well with colossus at 1600BC, and getting Repub before I finished building the next thing (temple).

However, it was the hardest OCC I have ever played. All the AI's were nowhere to be seen, and as soon as I found any they killed my exploring units. I only had contact with 2 AI's until way into AD. Both were very hostile, I only got 1 tech and no tribute.
Just to make matters worse I only found 2 huts before my two warriors were killed, giving me just 25 gold and warrior code.

And that's without mentioning the start area, which is pretty bad for OCC. No grassland just plains, hills and ocean (although very easy to defend). And the wine was nice (other than when the damn barbs kept pillaging my mine).

Anyway, I did finally reach AC in 1953, my worst OCC performance to date. I arrived a mere year before the Sioux who I was very worried would get there before me. Incidentally, I rushbought UN when I could. Although I got little back in tribute, I think the protection from the warmongering Sioux was worth it. It was a bit a gamble, but I think it payed off. Also, given the start location I had to rush to explosives, to terrafrom those horrible plains. I then had to rush to refrigeration, meaning the Sioux got Darwin's. As soon as I could I bribed two Sioux engineers for a total of 940 something gold, and disbanded my own.

I think this map is a good challenge and, as always, comes down to a lot to luck (if only those warriors had reached some more friendly civs/turned over a hut or two more). I'm sure it can be done a lot faster than 1953, because I didn't bother to micromanage as much as I should have, and wasted various turns over the course of the game.
Still, it is an unusual and amusing OCC, and I'd like to see how other people got on, so give it a go.

Graag

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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	27-01-2000 10:18									#15
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I landed in 1957 with substantially the same experience. The early start turned out not to be as crucial as the unfriendly AI and the mediocre location. I also felt that UN was going to be necessary in the endgame. My biggest slowdown was not planning the food supply carefully enough to build the city large enough to keep science at 2 turns after Newton's. I posted a log on the Misc. OCC logs thread.

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--grigor