31-01-2000 19:11									#1
	Shields vs. Trade Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Somewhere recently, Ming commented to someone that he was concentrating too much on shield/production. That interested me because I've done the same, figuring it's good to produce whatever it is I want to produce faster.

But I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a point when those shield workers ought to be turned into food/trade producers (stick 'em out in the oceans, for example) so that I can create scientists and speed up my tech discoveries. I'm still confused about what exactly trade does. I believe it increases income, doesn't it? But does it also contribute to science?

Appreciate whatever counsel you all have to offer, as always.

	31-01-2000 19:45									#2
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I missed Ming's comment, but I think the answer depends on what you are playing. On single production (ie against the AI), I max out production everywhere except my science city. Using the production to build caravans is the quickest way to get both trade and wonders. My limited experience with double production (ie against humans) suggests that you have more production than you need, but not enough trade. In this case I would start putting people to work on ocean squares and trade specials to boost trade. People with more experience in double production are better qualified than I am to talk about this.

"I fear that I shall die a Prince"
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales

	31-01-2000 19:59									#3
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In double production, Adam Smith is correct when he says that production usually isn't a problem. I now concentrate far more on trade vs production.
But no matter what you are playing, it's till a balancing act to meet your objectives.
Trade is important all the time. If you aren't getting sciences fast enough, you will be in trouble. I keep this in mind when placing cities down. If I have enough trade, but am lacking production, I will look for sites that will produce shields. I'm always looking to fill whatever need I have.

So just look at your civ as a whole, and see what you need most. While trade is by far the most important element, it is still a balancing act. What good is trade if you can't produce anything

	01-02-2000 10:23									#4
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MyOlde - Trade - what does it mean?

Let's say at the beginning of a game (still in Despo) you have a size three coastal city. You can have four workers in the 20 square field of your city, one of which has to be in your city center. If you built on plains and you have no specials, you could place the three extra units on three ocean square each producing 1 food and 2 trade; add that to the 2 food, 1 shield, and 1 trade for the city center and your city produces 5 food, 1 shield, and 7 trade. (you would be in a food deficit, but this isn't about food!) So 7 trade... what does that mean?

If this was your only city, your entire civ in total is producing 7 trade arrows. These get allocated by your tax allocation menu: if you have your allocation set to 60% taxes and 40% science then your civ will get 4 coins and 3 science beakers each turn. (the computer rounds off fractions.) The coins get added to your cash balance, and the beakers get added to your science accumulation. At the beginning of the game on a small map it takes 10 beakers to get your first advance, so on your fourth turn you would get an advance. Various improvements impact the effectiveness of your cities trade arrows, a marketplace would increase your coins (not your 10 trade arrows) and luxuries by 50%, so in the above example you would get 6 coins and 3 beakers with your 7 trade arrows. Etc. Does that help?

	01-02-2000 10:28									#5
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Yes, trade contributes to science.

A balanced approach is probably the best, but sometimes I max shields in a city (when rushing for a wonder) and sometimes trade in all my cities (when rushing for Monarchy or Philo).

All in all, I like arrows more than shields.

Carolus

	01-02-2000 10:57									#6
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Sten et al., Yes it does help - partly. Perhaps I should re-state my question.

I find even when I'm dominant over the other civs that well into the game (the 1800s and even early 1900s) it takes me 3 to 4 turns to discover a new tech on my way to space flight. I want to speed that up and am looking for the best way.

	31-01-2000 23:33									#7
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In MP trade is everything... and the only thing. With MP science is key, as everyone is racing through the tech chart to win the next wonder. Thats it, thats the whole game. So forget those shields. I think this is why republic is so important in MP. Those extra trade arrows are like having the colossus in every city. Republic in MP is like Monarchy in SP.

	31-01-2000 23:39									#8
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MWHC: So presumably I can apply the same thinking to SP?

	31-01-2000 23:50									#9
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I don't agree with the statement: trade is everything in MP.
Trade will make you the leading scientific civ for the first 3000 years of the game.
Shield if used for expansion will allow you to outgrow those trade oriented civs, and beat the trade oriented civ in science once you shift some workers to trade squarres later on. In deity where the whole game revolve around building the 3 happinness wonders I will go for the trade though.

	01-02-2000 00:23									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

A strategy i use for deity is as follows.... laying down my first two cities preferable at least two city radius apart and preferably with some specials for the capital. build two more cities and fill in the gaps between the cities.... start my wonder and build more settlers.....

thats straight forward enough..... however i max out scince in all cities until monarchy and hopefully i have built one city on a gold or spice tile.....

i like to max science but not at the expense of growth.... as was stated here and many other times in these forums, this game is about growth..... with growth comes trade science and production.... in x2 production i only have a couple of cities early maxing out shields with the rest.... usually the first four or five cities maxing science...

Remember, you need to plan ahead for all stages of the game..... early expansion or the race to the gardens or mikes is not the end of the game..... if anything it is the early part of the game.

While Mikes is important and i often wonder, take Gardens or wait for mikes as it is right around the corner..... i often will wait for mikes..... and if i lose out on it i take wall or collosus.....

As you get more cities, i think it is important to build up your beginning cities with major rushbuilding .... i am not a huge caravan guy in MP.... i know i wont' get all the wonders much less all the top wonders , unless everyone else is millenium behind... i often prepare for getting Adam Smith so that my infrastructure does not cost me much.

Free temples, libraries, marketplaces and coastal fortresses just to name a few are invaluable as you approach mid game.... personally i think this is where many people lose focus in MP games

All those wonders, Wall , G Library, lighthouse, which we deemed pretty much unecessary in SP are excellent wonders for MP... Wall has become my favorite early wonder now as your walls cannot be destroyed by annoying dips and do not expire until Mettalurgy.... which is early but not early enough to hurt you

So don't despair if you dont' get the happy wonders as they really arent' necessary.. they just make your empire a bit easier to run...... IMO of course

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I am a civ addict. ARE U 2??????


icq 30200920

	01-02-2000 06:24									#11
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MyOlde:
Use Super Science City. You can then max out trade/science in only one city and it still beats AI (OCC thaught me that )
You can find precise recipe for SSC in a lot of OCC threads.

War4Ever:
What do you mean by two city radiuses? how many tiles is that?

	01-02-2000 10:01									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

VetLegion it is about 7- 10 tiles or so.... this allows for two more cities to fit snuggly and complete a line for defense as well

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I am a civ addict. ARE U 2??????


icq 30200920

	01-02-2000 12:22									#13
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I do tend to create a SSC, HOWEVER once I've gotten that done 2 usually work on expanding science in ALL my cities, never can have enough beakers

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The Mad Mad Ruler of the World

	03-02-2000 02:51									#14
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There is nothing useful I can add that has not been said by those above. One of the key strategies I learned is to 'maximize production in order to maximize trades'. Very simply, it means to build up a SSC to the max trades by using the max production of CARAVANS in all of the neighboring cities. One caveat is that it is good (or unavoidable) to have a couple of minor science cities that can help supplement research. These cities are typically along shorelines and it can be useful to build the lib/univ in those cities as well. I found it hard, as well, to get to an advance every 2 turns in a normal game because by the time that I can, I am switching over to start building my war machine. For AC, I found that an advance every 2 turns wouldn't make that much of a difference.

Sorry, didn't mean to say 2 advances per turn. I edited it to say it right.
[This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited February 02, 2000).]

	03-02-2000 05:26									#15
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Steve Clark how do you get two sciences per turn..... i can get one but never have i got two unless it was Darwins voyage of course.... unless i have missed something.....

	03-02-2000 05:28									#16
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MyOlde - I did an analysis some time back; it led me to conclude that you should concentrate on shields. In the long run you will generate more arrows by building more cities. See the thread http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/H...html?date=08:30