29-12-1999 02:23									#1
	How to have fun with Bombers. Increase the size of your Attachments

If you are far enough advanced over an adversary that you have Advanced Flight, and they don't even have Flight, there is a thing you can do with your Bombers that can really kill off enemy cities without the risk of losing a plane (except to bribery, although Democracy can solve that problem.)

The idea here is to hover bomber planes on the squares around a particular enemy city that has 2 or more food production. Do this to enough squares and presto, the city is faced with a very severe food shortage and easily falls into a downward population spiral once its food box empties.

This strategy can also be used to take control of resource squares that are within the city radius of both one of your cities and an enemy city.

In CivI this could be extremely abusive. How does it work in CivII?

	29-12-1999 04:41									#2
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I thought Bombers have to return to a city, airport or a carrier on the next turn?

	29-12-1999 19:59									#3
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Well, if you have enough bombers, you can rotate them in and out on every turn. But then if you had enough bombers to do this, why wouldn't you just bomb the city? I guess if the city has city walls, the population won't decrease if you attack it, but that's the only reason I can see to do this.

	29-12-1999 21:30									#4
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x2 post
[This message has been edited by Theben (edited January 02, 2000).]

	29-12-1999 21:31									#5
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The more effective tactic is to cover every single square your opponents has that produces "shields", especially if the target is republic/democracy. They do get to keep the one from the city square, but that's it. The city will lose it's units before they get to attack, so don't worry about any fighters stationed inside (assuming they're supported by that city!). The next turn kill the one remaining defender and walk in. Less effective vs. monarchy/ communism, and doesn't work against fundy at all.

	29-12-1999 21:52									#6
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That's a good idea. Unfortunately when I get to that stage of the game, the AI is almost always in a Fundamentalist government, so they don't need to worry about support.

	31-12-1999 07:53									#7
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Hey Theban,
The AI actually does this trick to some extent...and that is what prompted me to do as you do, wholesale shield-starve a cities units in a republic/democracy.

I'd add to your comment only that it is a great tactic against an cease-fire'd AI. You know your going to war when they break the truce so I call it peace time agression--gives meaning to the Evil Romans.

Steve,
I'm not sure if you know about the fortified bomber? Bombers don't have to go back. If they can find land, they can fortify. I guess it is based on refeuling in the air. So they can just sit on your enemies resource squares if you don't fear fighters. Out of this reality comes the concept (cheat) of stacking--though I like the interdiction concept of bombers and find legitimacy in the idea.

Aurelius.
[This message has been edited by Aurelius (edited December 30, 1999).]

	31-12-1999 09:39									#8
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What do you mean they don't have to return if they find land? They can fortify??? Can you give a better example? I have the impression that I have had bombers over a land area, not river, lake or ocean, and if I forget to move them back to a city, they crash. I don't think I have ever tried to fortify the bomber when it's out of a city. What do you do?

	31-12-1999 09:56									#9
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Yeah Poppa,

Me too, a friend told me about this trick after a month or too of warlord Civ. It never occurred to me to try this trick on my own. I assume you know how to fortify a ground unit. Do the same thing on land with a bomber. It won't crash. It will sit there until it is shot down or unfortified and moved either back to a base/city/carrier or to another piece of land and refortified. You can explore indefinately this way. But don't attack another unit until you return home for more bombs! You will crash if you don't resupply with presumably more bombs. So you can move without a second attack with no penalty.

You can also try fortifying at sea. You just get a message that you can't do this. Land better be nearby! River's are not problem. Lakes are.

Experiment!

	31-12-1999 10:32									#10
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Thanks Aurelius. I dont often use bombers, mostly the Howitzer, Tank and Spy overland conquest. However, sometimes, after knocking off a few cities, I can get the AI to change government from Democracy, and then my spy gets to bribe a few cities, so I get some bombers that way.
So, just get the bomber to a fortress area and tell it to fortify. Or...get a couple of engineers to quick built a fortress under a bomber with almost no movement points left, and then have the bomber fortify. Nice move.

	31-12-1999 11:00									#11
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Poppa,

There's a distinction between the words 'fortressed' and 'fortified'. You actually don't need to build a 'fortress' or an airbase for a bomber! You can just use the 'f' command and 'fortify' over UNIMPROVED land. But for stacking purposes, it is a great defensive set-up to have a bomber 'fortified' with a 'fortress' and some strong defensive units. The combination of bombers on a square with other units is called stacking with or without the 'fortress'. The concept of stacking is based on the restriction that only a fighter (stealth or reg) can attack a bomber. In the event that a fighter is attacking the stack, the strongest defender defends (this I assume true from experience. though partisans go for engineers as an exception!) If you have a 'fortress', you can only lose one unit per attack. Without a 'fortress' your at risk of losing an entire stack, bomber and all.

But I'm getting too wordy, experiment. I too, love howitzers and spies--not much for tanks.
Oh, can't help myself, build a mountain 'fortress', and put a tank or strong defensive unit in the 'fortress' and 'fortify' and you have a powerful unit. Put a bomber in the stack and 'fortify' and Vet stealth won't budge the combo and howitzers will be useless. Just imagine how many stealth vet fighters will bite the dust with a vet mech fortified in the mountain 'fortress'. It's a cheat in some ways. But everyone does it I'd venture.

Howitzer only is a good concept. Still think a couple fortress buildin' engineers should accompany the howitzer brigade along a railroad with spy Can destroy a civ fast! One turn!

Aurelius the Cruel.

	31-12-1999 20:37									#12
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Aurelius:

Thanks for the tip about Bombers, didn't know that. Your posts on this thread and others are very good. Glad to see experienced newcomers to this forum. You'll make Warlord in no time

BTW, you mentioned about coming from the cold netherregion of NY - what part specifically?

	01-01-2000 03:43									#13
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Hey Steve,

I like the little titles, settler/cheiftain/warlord..., but I want to be choo choo charlie--an engineer. During a game, I'm most excited when explosives is developed or available for research--even more than espionage and robotics and especially so with Leo's thing.

With a settler or chieftain title, I can be excused for my ignorance here and in the games. I think multiplayer will be a big come uppance too :-)

If I didn't have such a nice view of SF facing east, I wouldn't be typing so much at the computer--not true, but it leads to your question-- As far as my orgin is concerned, a simple riddle: East of Buffalo, West of The City, South of Syracuse and North of Elmira is a smallish town with three seasons and three hills and a long lake--oh, and it's 'gorgeous!'

How bout choo?

Aurelius--Ignores ZOC.

	01-01-2000 06:37									#14
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To bully weak enemies you might as well "search and destroy".
Rather like the Russians in Chechnia! HA!

	01-01-2000 12:42									#15
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Aurelius:

From my office, I'm looking directly at a 14000 footer (Pikes Peak). Know the view across the bay at your end, very nice. As far as NY, how about Ithaca or Watkins Glen. I'm originally from Syracuse (Go Orange) and my ancestors have been in Central NY for 200 years.

Happy New Years all.

	01-01-2000 14:26									#16
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Sounds pretty Steve, Pike's Peak. Watkins and Ithaca are both surrounded by hill except the lakeside. And both are gorgeous. But one prides itself through advertising and has three seasons....fall/spring/and summer. But both are fridgid in winter. Still, there is a distinction between Ithaca and Watkins besides my youthful stomping grounds.

I got to say, giving both answers says alot!

Syracuse ehh, aren't its inhabitants warlike folk? Sounds to me that you have found a home with even more downy snow to shovel. Are you a Bronco fan now? Or Rockie fan? I've adopted the sport teams of SF.

Happy Millenium. SF had a great fireworks show near the bay bridge. Like any good civboy, I'm still awake at past 1:00 in the morn' postin' on Apolyton.

And like Genghis says, time for a new game.

AU.

	01-01-2000 23:14									#17
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Aurelius: Had to be in the office until 1 am to make sure the computer systems rolled over ok. As expected, no problems. Got me stumped on the place, Ithaca is the only place I know of with a gorge in the Finger Lakes. As far as Colorado, we only get snow about 6 times a years and it only stays around for 1-2 days at most. Don't even have to shovel, it just melts or blows away. No, never have much of a fan of local teams - too much hype. After leaving NY, we moved to San Diego where I went to high school and college. My youngest brother have been living in SF since 1995. He will graduating from SFSU in May and then onto USF for grad school.

OK, enough bio. I promise I'll talk about civing.

	02-01-2000 04:11									#18
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I live in MN. What does that get me?

------------------
Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

	02-01-2000 06:51									#19
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Hey Steve,
I like the biotalk. Remember, most of those Upstate NY towns have Greek names and the Greeks are a big time civ. I'm going to play the Greeks in my next OCC game and name the leader Odysseus--son of Laertes. One of my best friends graduated from the Classic at SF State. Seems like a fun school to attend. Oh, going back to Ithaca and Watkins Glen, that Glen part of the name is an awesome gorge--so awesome that they named the city after it. But Ithaca uses a slogan, "Ithaca is Gorgeous." And both towns have four glorious seasons, but Ithaca is a College town and a non-townie might understand the three seasons of Fall/spring/and summer. Damn cold this time of year though! So I like that you said Watkins and Ithaca.

Genghis, As for Montana! Too many Y2K survivalists Are you tundra folks compliant as hearty. I know this guy in that university town in Montana. He loved to go walking in the remote parks up there. He said you could walk a whole day and not see a human. Do you ever ride the crest of a glacier, Genghis?

Use to own a parka and down mittens. In SF, I don't need but a good sweat shirt and long pants year round. Oh, and only tourists where shorts here

Aurelius.

	03-01-2000 07:27									#20
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Aureliuse, i hate to correct you in front of all these people but MN is Minnisota Although you are pretty much on with all that cold glacier stuff.

------------------
Ah man! Ghandi! New game.

-Genghis Al

	03-01-2000 23:56									#21
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Only the tourists wear shorts. Isn't that the truth. Nothing like a July fog rolling over Twin Peaks when it is 100 in the central valley!

I thought the fortifying bomber thing was fixed in a patch??? Haven't tried it myself, but...

	04-01-2000 09:09									#22
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Personally, I think that "fortifying" a bomber classifies as something very akin to a cheat. I wouldn't use it, myself. There are enough things about the game that play fast and loose with reality already.

Jim W

	04-01-2000 09:09									#23
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Personally, I think that "fortifying" a bomber classifies as something very akin to a cheat. I wouldn't use it, myself. There are enough things about the game that play fast and loose with reality already.

Jim W

	04-01-2000 15:26									#24
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Jim,

I use to play this war game, Blitzkrieg, and if memory serves me, there was a bomber concept called interdiction. Add to interdiction, refueling through the air, and you have a real justification for fortified bombers.

Having said this, I'm a real novice in military affairs and must trust the realities of the game...and think like hell to figure out why bombers fortify!

If there is a patch, I guess I should download it. Doesn't anyone else use this bomber fortified concept?

Chieftain Aurelius.

Oh, Mark Twain had an adage about SF....

	04-01-2000 15:33									#25
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oh,

I forgot one thing. Sorry Genghis, I actually didn't mean to confuse Minnesota and Montana. I hope the natives will forgive my trespasses. Being from NY and California, I sometimes neglect the in between. Don't take offense, but ignorance is bliss.

Aurelius-- a jester at heart

	06-01-2000 08:13									#26
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I used to play Blitzkrieg, too. You ever notice that it actually ended up more like WWI than WWII, with two massive armies lined up across the board, border to border, with people attacking until one sie or the other was ground down too far to hold on?

Anyway, I suppose there could be some sort of justification in terms of refeuling bombers.
It still seems to me to be aa teensy bit on the wrong side; after all nobvody has to build any kind of capability for refeuling bombers. But then, nobody has to build any specific factory to put out the railway ties, either.

I dunno. Unless the AI learns it, and uses it on me, I probably won't use it.

Jim W

	06-01-2000 09:28									#27
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Jim, I had a friend that use to clobber me in BK. Surround and destroy! Our games were never very static. The trenches were always reserved for the burial of my stacks. But then I had a lacky I'd thrash often too--hope he's reading this

Going back to bombers, they cost a huge amount of shields and they cause those unhappy faces in or out of a city. So I assume that the cost of making units to refeul is inherent in the massive shield requirement. Bombers are not nearly as dominating as howizters so I don't think it is a terrible cheat....

Your last point about AI ethics is good...until I ask you this question, do you ever sneak units past an enemy ZOC via a spy/freight/etc and then attack a city deep in the heart of the AI or just behind the front? AI doesn't use this ZOC cheat either

Going back to Blitzkreig, I use to get so frustrated when my supply lines were cut! This phenomenon is not 'really' present in civ.

Do you know if these wargames are now available in computer form? Hated all those little tiles and the tedium of movement factor.

Later, Aurelius.

	06-01-2000 20:18									#28
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Whats this "fortifying" a bomber?? Do you mean inside a city??

	06-01-2000 20:24									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Aurelius on 12-30-1999 11:56 PM Yeah Poppa, Me too, a friend told me about this trick after a month or too of warlord Civ. It never occurred to me to try this trick on my own. I assume you know how to fortify a ground unit. Do the same thing on land with a bomber. It won't crash. It will sit there until it is shot down or unfortified and moved either back to a base/city/carrier or to another piece of land and refortified. You can explore indefinately this way. But don't attack another unit until you return home for more bombs! You will crash if you don't resupply with presumably more bombs. So you can move without a second attack with no penalty. You can also try fortifying at sea. You just get a message that you can't do this. Land better be nearby! River's are not problem. Lakes are. Experiment!

what? just how do you fortify a unit? I use the F key or the menu. Both of which tell me a bomber can't no matter where it is. Perhaps you could post a shot or saved game????


'Oh, can't help myself, build a mountain 'fortress', and put a tank or strong
defensive unit in the 'fortress' and 'fortify' and you have a powerful unit. Put a
bomber in the stack and 'fortify' and Vet stealth won't budge the combo and
howitzers will be useless. Just imagine how many stealth vet fighters will bite the
dust with a vet mech fortified in the mountain 'fortress'. It's a cheat in some
ways. But everyone does it I'd venture. '

You've done this, right? I'd really like to see it because it does not work for me. Over a fortress or not, units or not, sea or land. hmmm.....

[This message has been edited by My Wife Hates CIV (edited January 06, 2000).]

	07-01-2000 03:52									#30
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Hey MWHC,

I have really done it. But as Sten Sture mentioned in an earlier post, there may be a patch for the phenomenon. Oh, if you tell me exactly how to make those pretty pics, I'll try my hand at uploading an example (I'll look at your notes to SmartFart or was it Caesar the Great? Whatever.)

Maybe I've been having too much success due to a know cheat. In OCC, this fortified bomber trick has been essential in my late year successes. I would need twice the bombers to hold off all those space ship wrecking units that would take my one city.

I don't use 'f' keyboard command, but rarely. The menu's fortified command is my method. Well, just used the 'f' command to fortify a bomber in my 'evergreen game' (nothing to brag about though.)

I'll use a cheat unless told not to. And being new to the scene at apolyton, I do need some admonishment on occasion.

Aurelius.