03-11-2000 14:20									#151
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Yeah! Good work amjayee. can't wait to see it!

Keep up the good work all!

	04-11-2000 10:28									#152
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Hmm... I've got a few suggestions....

First of all, there are three basic parts of a capitalist economy, as I'm sure all of you know: capital, labor, and land (which includes real land, machines, etc.). These three factors limit a society's potential output. Now, the values of the society determine the situation of each.

For example, a nationalistic country, such as post WWII Japan or the early 19th century German principalities/late 19th century Germany/Austria, would have a high investment rate, and would quickly increase the amount of capital it would have, as Japan has in the past half-century, and Germany has up till the first World War. Conversely, the society would demote foreigners to a lower status, and would flood the labor market, which in turn, would decrease the price of labor, setting off the need for political reform or outright socialist rebellion (which happened in several German principalities, though they were put down by other nations).

Secondly, going back to land, labor, and capital, these are the building blocks of all market economies, and should play the central role in the algorithm.

If you put capital into the system this would cause a proportional increase in both land (the price of land would increase, so more land would enter the market), as well as labor (the price of labor would increase, and more laborers would enter the market). If you put labor into the system, we would see a proportional increase in capital (labor would be cheaper, so more people would invest in industry). Etcetera.

These three variables alone could determine how the economy would behave in the future... Keeping track of every commodity would be near-impossible...

	06-11-2000 10:34									#153
	Remove this text

Thanks for the suggestions, Ramo.

I am aware of the 3 basic economic parts. The first demo will only include labour, but later on we will build on it.

Unfortunately I am still a bit lost on how to implement land into the algorithm. It is required, not only because it is important in reality, but because it is propably the best way to implement both a capitalist and a nobility class in the political model. But wouldn't machines be a part of capital?

Excellent describtion of capital in nationalistic societies. I wasn't at all aware of that.

But why do you think handling each commodity would be impossible? Do you think we will have to remove it from the model? I think at least having "commodity groups" like food, housing, communication, transportation etc would be required, to make the economy model any fun to interact with as a player.

I have been thinking about how to implement capital in the model, but I would like to see Amjayee's econ demo first, to see if the initial supply and demand algorithms works.

What do you think of the work we have done so far in the econ model?

------------------
Vote Gore. For the sake of people, not god.

GGS Website

	06-11-2000 15:55									#155
	Put an end to popups!

About elasticity: now I see. I thought it was something with what the old price is multiplied to get the new price, but now I realised it is the change of the price. Good, that cleared it out.

About capital and such, I don't have time to think of it seriously, but earlier I was planning, that the company system would take care of that, and had some plans for it. I will talk about it when I'm making suggestions for the company model.

About commodities, I think we can't live without them. They are an essential part of trade. Economy might live without them, but we need trade also...

BTW, this thread is really sprawling! 154 messages already!
[This message has been edited by amjayee (edited November 06, 2000).]

	07-11-2000 03:53									#156
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Ramo:

Oh, so you think land would be covered by having raw materials?

But especcially conserning food producers the owners of the land (the nobility) should have a lot of importance.

Wealth distribution:
I have been thinking a lot about this some time ago, and I came to the conclusion that it would be way cooler to have an actual econ model with actual classes, than just a "fake" Lorenz graph based on some variables. In stead we should have the classes, and their wealth would be determined by the actual conditions of the economy. In the first demo there will be just one class (self employed people) but soon it should be possible to have two (capitalists and workers) and more could easily be added, to create a vibrant and living economy. From these classes a graph could be constructed, but now it would just show the state of the civ, and not create it.

quote: The problem is, who's economic policies will we follow ? We don't have any supply-siders in GG&S, do we ?

	07-11-2000 23:47									#157
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Collected Excuses by amjayee:

-I was going to use the last weekend for the economy demo, but instead decided to visit my parents after the funeral. So that delayed the progress.

-All code is now ready, the program compiles, executes, and runs stable. But: it behaves a little strangely, and I want to fix that before I send it. Shouldn't be tough, I hope tomorrow it would be ready. But don't take this for granted.

-Generally I have been doing some stupid things with this program, since I have never been creating this complex class hierarchies. But I have learnt lots of things.

Expect it soon. Though I have learnt enough not to give excact dates.

Yes, I agree the next version should have companies and such. Third might have trade.

	08-11-2000 17:14									#158
	Suffering from ads?

The first rough version of the prototype is now available. Get it from its own thread I made.

	09-11-2000 05:15									#159
	Got spare money?

Joker:

"Supply-Side" economics is the ideology that wealth "trickles down" from the rich to the poor. It's also called Reaganomics or Voodoo Economics. (needless to say, I call it crack-brained economics )

Land:

Yeah, land refers to all raw materials, so I suppose real land and minerals should be sub-categories (both expanding w/capital). They would merely be another market (but would be more of an oligarchy than perfect competition, until later).

Wealth distribution:

Making "classes" would be interesting, but not necessary. Dealing with a wealth distribution function would be a hell of a lot easier than dealing with a list of classes. Perhaps we could just use the class list for the end-user?

Classes, IMO, would make things a lot harder to deal with (especially since divisions get rather blurry).

	09-11-2000 17:31									#160
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

If we would just need to track wealth distribution, it may be that without classes it would be easier. But there are also some other things that we need to achieve, other than economics or wealth distribution; so, we need to find a balance point between different ideas. And keeping track of wealth class-wise is a necessity, otherwise it becomes quite inexcact, and that would harm the social system, I think.

	10-11-2000 10:42									#161
	Increase Your PM Length

Ramo:

Supply siders:
Ok! So no, I'm pretty sure we don't have any of them on the team. We're all pretty liberal, as far as I know.

Land:
Yes, that's what I had in mind, too. It is a bit hard to implement, though.

Wealth:
I think at least having a capitalist class and a workers class is required to portray both economic and political concepts (communism, revolutions etc). And a self employed middle class could also be added. Besides, we don't need a lot of classes. And classes would be generic, so there is no need to have wealthy or poor members of a class.

How would you suggest to portray a market economy without classes?

(I just saw that Amjayee has said pretty much the same as I have, but either way...)

------------------
"It would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence."
- A Clockwork Orange

GGS Website

	13-11-2000 14:36									#163
	Got spare money?

I start to see S.Kroeze's idea here. So, we would have own classes only for the powerful groups, that would be expected to share the same ambitions. The class list presented by him seemed good. But I don't think nobility should be always in charge of the military; today it's the high rank officers and powerful politicians in some cases.

So, those would be the classes, that create the social and economic environment. In addition to those, we need also several professions; for example we need to keep track of scientists, perhaps also artists and such, if those are implemented (and I think they should). They would not affect much the economy, and the social system they would affect only marginally. I think that these have in common the fact that they are usually "out of classes", so they are not attached to any class, and usually they are government funded. Perhaps military, meaning the ordinary soldiers, should go to this group also? This might not be very clearly said, what do you think?

Then what about students? They are quite a new "class", but they are somewhat powerful; they were important in the French revolution, like also in the Russian revolution in 1917. Also in Finland they have tried to throw a revolution. Can we ignore such a group? And if not, how whould it be handled? Would it be bad to have an own class for them? I mean, they don't belong to that class all their lives, but only some years. Perhaps we should come up with a special treatment for them? Perhaps we could only keep track of their number, like with scientists, and let the number affect some things?

	14-11-2000 17:48									#164
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Thank you for reminding me of your post, Sander.

Once again I agree with you that the number of classes should not be too high, or the political model will be impossible to play with. But on the other hand I am not sure I completely agree with your list of classes.

I think my list would be something like this:

workers
peasants
capitalists (capital owners)
self employed people (I don't know a good word for these in English, though)
large landowners
bureaucracy
military leaders
religious leaders
(intelligentsia)

I don't think these would be too many. The main problem I see with the political model is the nobility. They do not really have a place in the economy. They would be part capital owners, part landowners and part military people. So how can they be handled? I also think that including the intelligentsia is important, also when considering possible near future scenarios. These would include both scientists, and the artists and students, that Amjayee talked about.

When this is said I also agree with you that classes should be handled at a regional level, and that the same class in different regions could have conflicting ideas.

At the moment I am not really thinking much about the political model. It is pretty much an addon to the more basic models, and so I would like to have a pop and an econ model ready, before I start worrying about any politics. But it is good to discuss this now, since we will have to decide it sooner or later.

And once again thank you for your help.

------------------
"It would sharpen you up and make you ready for a bit of the old ultra-violence."
- A Clockwork Orange

GGS Website

	14-11-2000 21:27									#165
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"Self employed people"
You don't know a good english word for this?
I will tell you the english word that means this, but first you must answer me these questions three:
1) What is your name?
2) What is your quest?
3) What is the average windspeed velocity of a laden swallow?

Ok, the secret word for today is: "Entrepeneur- A person who is self employed or runs their own business."

------------------
How will you make it if you never even try?
-Macy Gray

	15-11-2000 15:48									#166
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LOL was that Monty Python?

	16-11-2000 18:18									#167
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You are crazy, Guildmaster.

But thanks for the word. The entrepeneur class it is, then.

------------------
"In America, first we take the sugar, then we take the power, then we take the women."
- Homer J. Simpson

GGS Website

	20-11-2000 14:43									#168
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Wow, I found a great link on the topic. www.sparknotes.com which is a site i sometimes use as an English Novel reference has a section on economy. It has everying thing w have beren discussing
*Suppy and Demand
*Elactisity
*quyalibrum, etc.

and messag boards. This site is alwwaays written vry well. I havnt atcually read it yt, I glanced at demand, and it seemed somewhat rellevant.

	20-11-2000 15:02									#169
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Were you in a hurry, heardie?

Well anyway, the site seems good. Thanks for the tip!

	21-11-2000 11:13									#170
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

How did you guess?
Serioursly though my 'e' also is really pov and never works unless i bang it, spically on hot days like yesterday!

	21-11-2000 18:41									#171
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thanks, heardie! Checking it out now...

------------------
"In America, first we take the sugar, then we take the power, then we take the women."
- Homer J. Simpson

GGS Website

	22-11-2000 19:59									#172
	Suffering from ads?

Hmm.

It's pretty much just the message boards they have. It's not of as much use as I thought.

Maybe I should buy that book they're advertizing for. It did get 5 out of 5 in Amazon's user rating.

Anyway, I am still working on a more advanced supply and production algorithm. It should include both capital, raw materials, labour and productivity. But like the demand thing it wont be ready till it's ready. Just give me some time, guys! If I get the time to work on it it might be ready in a week or so, otherwise maybe 2-3 weeks. Dunno.

------------------
"In America, first we take the sugar, then we take the power, then we take the women."
- Homer J. Simpson

GGS Website

	01-12-2000 04:50									#173
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

While working on the supply algorithm I have come up with a way to handle the "what do the people want" part of the demand.

Basically it should look something like this:

First the amount of goods produced that turn is calculated. Then each class' income's percentage of the total income of all classes is the same as the percentage of the total amount of goods that this class demands. Then the amount of people is used to find the goods per PU (note that when we link this with the pop model not everybody would be working - the kids and elderly etc would also be included in the class population). All this we have seen before. Then the magic begins:

code:

	if (goodsperpu < 5)
	{
		dfood = goodsperpu;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = 5;
	if (goodsperpu < 6)
	{
		dhousing = goodsperpu - 5;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dhousing = 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 8)
	{
		dfood = dfood + goodsperpu - 6;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = dfood + 2;
	if (goodsperpu < 9)
	{
		dclothing = goodsperpu - 8;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dclothing = 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 10)
	{
		dfood = dfood + goodsperpu - 9;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = dfood + 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 11)
	{
		dhousing = dhousing + goodsperpu - 10;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dhousing = dhousing + 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 12)
	{
		dfood = dfood + goodsperpu - 11;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = dfood + 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 13)
	{
		dclothing = dclothing + goodsperpu - 12;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dclothing = dclothing + 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 14)
	{
		dfood = dfood + goodsperpu - 13;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = dfood + 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 16)
	{
		dhousing = dhousing + goodsperpu - 14;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dhousing = dhousing + 2;
	if (goodsperpu < 17)
	{
		dfood = dfood + goodsperpu - 16;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = dfood + 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 19)
	{
		dclothing = dclothing + goodsperpu - 17;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dclothing = dclothing + 2;
	if (goodsperpu < 22)
	{
		dhousing = dhousing + goodsperpu - 19;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dhousing = dhousing + 3;
	if (goodsperpu < 23)
	{
		dfood = dfood + goodsperpu - 22;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = dfood + 1;

	if (goodsperpu < 24)
	{
		dclothing = dclothing + goodsperpu - 23;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dclothing = dclothing + 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 28)
	{
		dhousing = dhousing + goodsperpu - 24;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dhousing = dhousing + 4;
	if (goodsperpu < 29)
	{
		dfood = dfood + goodsperpu - 28;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = dfood + 1;
	if (goodsperpu < 32)
	{
		dclothing = dclothing + goodsperpu - 29;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dclothing = dclothing + 3;
	if (goodsperpu < 38)
	{
		dhousing = dhousing + goodsperpu - 32;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dhousing = dhousing + 6;
	if (goodsperpu < 40)
	{
		dfood = dfood + goodsperpu - 38;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dfood = dfood + 2;
	if (goodsperpu < 43)
	{
		dclothing = dclothing + goodsperpu - 40;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dclothing = dclothing + 3;
	if (goodsperpu < 50)
	{
		dhousing = dhousing + goodsperpu - 43;
		goto end;
	}
	else
		dhousing = dhousing + 7;
	
end:

The greatness of this system is propably not seen immediately. But what is good about it is, that later on, adding a lot of new goods to the line wont take up many lines. So to make it so good number 1000 to 1100 demanded is cars we will only have to add 7 lines. And when people's incomes are very high the rows of goods that they demand will generally be pretty large. So all in all the amount of lines would not be _too_ large, and the algorithm still does what I want it to.

So now it should be fast and easy for Amjayee to just make a few new changes to the econ demo, which will make the whole demand thing a finished chapter.

The other minor changes needed is:

- make the minimum price of a good 0.1 credits and not 1 credit.

- add a few lines to the price calculator:

code:

	mfood = sfood * pfood;
	mhousing = shousing * phousing;
	mclothing = sclothing * pclothing;
	mgoods = mfood + mhousing + mclothing;
	mfood = (income / mgoods) * mfood;
	mhousing = (income / mgoods) * mhousing;
	mclothing = (income / mgoods) * mclothing;
	pfood = mfood / sfood;
	phousing = mhousing / shousing;
	pclothing = mclothing / sclothing;

	01-12-2000 16:40									#175
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yeah I know the reasons why Goto is shunned.

It was just the obvious thing to use here, since it is just a lot of goto's that all lead to the same point. And it would be much more time consuming to make this entire list into some other sort of loop.

What the whole thing is supposed to do is make it possible to use the people's income to find what goods they demand. If people's income is low they will mostly demand simple goods like food and housing. When they become wealthier they will demand lots of luxury goods and they will only spend a fraction of their income on food.

But this is actually not just a thing you do. Programming it is quite dificult. Cause it is not possible to just make the demand of each goods a function of the income, since the demand for each good as a function of total income will not just make up a straight line. In stead it will have an inclination of 0 some places, and other places it will have an inclination of 1.

Argh, this is not easy to describe. Especially when I can't draw it for you all, and even more so when I have to do it in english!

------------------
"It ain't broke, so BREAK it."
- Raingoon

GGS Website

	14-12-2000 18:15									#176
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ok, I think I have finally found a good way to handle supply, and production in general. Now it just needs some overall testing, to see if it works as I want it to, and I have to figure out some minor details, like the actual relationship between the capitalists and workers etc.

But I might as well post the first part of the algorithm, the one used to figure out how much money is invested in each sector.

After a lot of thinking, and after having thought of lots of potentials, I think the best way to do this is actually the simplest as well:

Simply use the amount of money earned from selling each good to invest in the good as well.

So if the production of food is 20, of housing is 10 and of clothing is 5, and the price of food is 8, of housing 10 and of clothing 20, then the amount of money invested in each of these the next turn will be:

Food: 20 * 8 = 160
Housing: 10 * 10 = 100
Clothing: 5 * 20 = 100

This should make sure that the equilibrium, where the price of all goods are the same, should come rather quickly.

Actually I think this system could be tested in the old version of the econ prototype. Since Amjayee is propably buissy I will try to do this myself, by scouting his program for the "people changing jobs" algorithm. Since there is no expences when producing goods in the first prototype, and since investments are not used, I will just use the results gained as modifiers with which the people should change jobs.

But the more I think about this, the less sure I am of whether the profit rate (money earned divided by money invested) should be the same for all sectors. Is it so? I mean, if technological development stopped right now, would it mean that all sectors would end up with the same profit rate? Logic would say that it would, cause if more money was earned somewhere it would mean people would invest money there, which would cause a lower profit rate.

But maybe sectors with high production has a low profit rate, where ones with a low production has a higher one. I am just not sure.

But the system I described there will most likely be used in the second econ prototype, and if we realize it is not good after all then we can always change it.

And don't worry, the rest of the econ model will be there shortly. I am almost done now.

------------------
"Damn those nazicommunists."
- McBain

GGS Website