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The Joker
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:14
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Many people have been wondering what this thing is all about. And I admit, it has been a bit dificult to find some general information about it. But this is changing right now!
So what is this?
GGS, or Guns, Germs & Steel: Tools of Conquest, which is our full title, is an ambitious project, trying to develop a civ like game, which will be anything but a clone.
We are trying to take civ gaming to a new level, by adding many new features.
A great place to find information about the project is the official GGS Website.
The project started back in March at the Civ3 General / Suggestions forum right here at Apolyton. The project is completely open source, and will remain free. It is run via the internet, and our team is made up of people from all around the world. The main design discussion takes place right here at our forum at Apolyton. This means that if you have any suggestions that you would like us to hear about, just post them! We will listen to everybody that has suggestions.
If you are interested in Civ gaming, and would like to participate in the development of one, then you are more than welcome to join the project. Anybody is welcome, designers, programmers and artists. All you have to do to join as a designer is post suggestions or comments here at Apolyton. As a programmer or an artist you should propably mail our lead programmer Amjayee at amjayee@kolumbus.fi for further details. We are coding the project in C++. The fact that we are still a young project means, that much needs to be done, but it also means that anyone joining now can have a huge impact on the actual game. Generally the more work you do the more impact you will have. But there are no rules here. Anybody is welcome, at their terms. So if you just want to post a few suggestions, then you are welcome to do so, and if you want to spend more time on the project then that is even better!
In the actual game we are focusing on more historical realism than Civ2, and we are trying to reduce micromanagement, by taking a lot of the ressource management from the hands of the player to an economy algorithm. We will also add a lot of new features not ever seen in Civ2, like diseases, domestic politics and much more. For more information on any of these, check the appropriate thread. This will also be where you should post any suggestions you might have. If you have any futher general questions about the project, then you are welcome to post them in this thread.
The Joker
[This message has been edited by The Joker (edited November 07, 2000).]
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please say it is in windows or will have a windows version, unlike freeciv
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dainbramaged13
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Dumbass
Mar 2000
time: 00:14
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THANK YOU!!!
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The Joker
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:14
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I will start looking around for it.
I think we all should do that.
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"In America, first we take the sugar, then we take the power, then we take the women."
- Homer J. Simpson
GGS Website
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The Joker
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:14
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Thanks! I guess we will try that, then!
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"In America, first we take the sugar, then we take the power, then we take the women."
- Homer J. Simpson
GGS Website
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The Joker
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:14
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Elmo pretty much said it all.
Great to see you. And welcome to our project.
It does not matter that you are not a programmer. You can still be of help.
Right now us designers are mostly discussing the economy and population models, plus some overall gaming issues (like how to do unit movement). And the programmers are currently occupied in constructing a user interface for the game.
The reason we are focusing on these issues are, that it is pretty nice to have them more or less settled, and have a working population and economy system, before moving on to more advanced tasks.
In what areas are you interested in helping out? Just pick a subject and post your ideas or comments in the appropriate thread, or make a new one!
And thanks a lot for volunteering to write the letter to Mr. Diamond. It should propably include something like:
- we are creating a computer game. Our inspiration is mainly Civilization and Civ2, but we are trying to change the genre, by implementing more features, and making it all more realistic.
- we are fans of his book (at least I am), and are using it for inspiration on how to create the game.
- Our project is being run over the internet by a group of entusiasts from all over the globe.
- We are currently early in the development process, and we don't have a working game yet. But we are getting there!
- Our project is open source, meaning that everybody interested can contribute to it, and the game will remain completely free for everybody.
anything else? As a "native" english speaker you could propably make a better letter than most of us europeans. So if you want you could write the letter, and post it here before mailing it to him (just to make sure everything is accurate).
Welcome on board!
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"It ain't broke, so BREAK it."
- Raingoon
GGS Website
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The Joker
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:14
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Yes, we are not just making this a game version of Mr. Diamond's book.
We are using the title since it demonstrates what we are trying to accomplish with the game.
And we are certaintly gonna use a lot of concepts that appear in the book, whether they be created by Mr. Diamond himself, or just mentioned by him, since the book is one of the most important books on the history of manking ever created.
But the game will remain a game. And we are not necessarily going to use a concept, just because it appears in the book, if that concept will hurt the gameplay. We are creating a game, which will be both a strategy game and a historical simulation. Both aspects will have to be implemented. For instance, if we implement all aspects from the book, we might end up with a game where the world itself determines who is going to succeed, and who is going to fail, due to the geographic determinism. And that wont do in a game. Therefore we are thinking about how to implement both aspects. And a possible result of this speculation can be found in the animals thread. We are using animals in the game, but we are going to make sure that a player can succeed, even if he hasn't got any animals on his continent. It will just become much more dificult. And that can be used as a form of advanced dificulty level. On a low level you will have loads of animals, on the hardest you will have none.
This is a brilliant examble of how to both implement some of the book's concepts, and still keep the game playable and fun. And this is how it should remain.
But this wont change anything in what you can help us with. If you have a lot of knowledge about the history of man, you can certaintly be of much help when handling the realism of the game.
And about the east/west versus north/south, I think giving movement limitations to north/south movement would be a fake and bad way to give east/west continents an advantage. In stead I think the advantage would come by itself, if we implement animals in the game. Due to the climatic differences it will be easier for animals and technology to spread east/west than north/south. Therefore I don't think we will even have to worry much about that. It should just come pretty much by itself.
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"It ain't broke, so BREAK it."
- Raingoon
GGS Website
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The Joker
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:14
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Well, I think we should avoid any fake restrictions and effects.
Simply make the movement of ideas restricted by different terrain types. This will make the restrictions come all by themselves. There is no reason why a trade route with cars from Florida to New York should be different from one from Florida to LA.
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"It ain't broke, so BREAK it."
- Raingoon
GGS Website
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Guildmaster
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Up your butt and around the corner
Jun 2000
time: 05:14
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TO be totally honest, I have never read the book, and I never heard of it either. Sounds interesting though
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He's spreading funk throughout the nations
And for you he will play
Electronic Super-Soul vibrations
He's come to save the day
- Lenny Kravitz
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The Joker
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Copenhagen, Denmark
Aug 1999
time: 06:14
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Guildmaster:
It is really interesting, actually. I like it not only because it offers some fascinating theories, but also because it is about history, which I like, but in a more scientific faction, trying to understand why things happen, and not just listing the facts.
Elmo:
I have it and I have read it in english, so...
And it's really true, that Dutch and Danish is really similar, at least when written. But when you Dutch talk it just stops making sence in any way!  But I guess Danish is similar.
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"Damn those nazicommunists."
- McBain
GGS Website
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cavebear
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of the Pleistocene
Oct 1999
time: 00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Joker on 12-12-2000 01:40 PM
Hmm...
Been some time since we've heard from Cavebear. I hope we didn't scare him away with this. 
If you are out there Cavebear I sure hope you will not leave us, or in case you did come back.
Think about it. The book does not contain everything the game will be like. the whole modern history part of the book is seriously incomplete. And if we were to only use aspects from the book then how would our government or economy model be like? Not very advanced, right? It is a fact that other books are better to use in some aspects, and that GGS is better to use in others. So we will take the best from all, and still keep the game a game, and make it fun and playable. Something it might not have been if we were "just" basing it on GGS the book.
So please, let us know from you. If you are not happy then maybe we can talk about it? 
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My apologies for not getting back to you sooner. The truth is that I have been reading the posts, but have become concerned about the design emphasis. It seems it is harder to get away from the Civ-model of warfare gaming than I had hoped.
I fully understand that you are not attempting a GGS simulation and that it is essential to keep a gaming aspect in your design. I understand that there has to be competition at the heart of it.
Still, I am concerned that the most basic aspects of the GGS idea are not being incorporated, and I just can't manage to compose a letter to Mr. Diamond in good faith. I have little doubt that you will all come up with a good game, but it doesn't feel like GGS and that was the whole attraction for me.
No hard feelings, really. I just feel I should back away from this. I suspect I would just keeping raising GGS issues that run counter to the direction of the game you are developing.
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amjayee
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Oct 1999
time: 07:14
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I have the English version of GGS, and now I'm halfway through it. It is really interesting, and gives a lot of ideas, not even speaking of getting a better idea of world history!
cavebear: What, the most basic aspects of GGS are not there? Now that I have been reading the book, I have thought that we are implementing just the basic aspects! Animal and and plant domestication will be somewhat important, diseases also, geography, guns and steel also... don't be taken back by our talking! The game will be quite much like GGS. And anyway, we would need someone to write to Mr Diamond.
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05-11-2000 23:24
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