03-02-2000 04:27									#31
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Yeah Steve,

It's hard for me to argue with your military assessment of navies and the minimal affect of Leo's concerning navies and I too am a late year military menace to the AI --post robotics. But I am never happy to see the Yellow Flag off the coast of my port cities prior to a gunpowder!

So like you, if I ever get involved with MP, I may need to do some backtracking on the value of navy militarily....

Oh, don't Caravels upgrade to transports? And too bad Leo's can't expire the turn after Automobile....

Au

	03-02-2000 05:41									#32
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Actually, in my current game, Leo's upgraded my caravels to galleons (yuck!). Steve - I too am a conquest fiend. In my current game, AI wasn't discovering magnetism as I was building JSB. I had all of my important wonders built (mostly with caravans) before the Lighthouse expired. This is exactly what I'm referring to, though. I built my caravans, increased my trade, built my wonders, feverishly founded cities, and fought a war with the Aztecs on my own continent (may they rest in peace). Just typing all of that was tiring. Where do I have time to build and maintain a top-notch navy? The Lighthouse/trireme thing is just too cumbersome to be effective with the way I play. I would rather conquer my own continent and maybe send a few units out to explore and conquer. I like to unleash my military fury in any of the following 3 instances -
1) I discover chivalry or mono, AI still has phalanxes
2) I discover tactics, AI has musketeers or worse
3) I discover any advanced military techs (robotics, rocketry, automobile, stealth, etc.)

I'm glad I discovered this website; I've never met anyone before that I could discuss civ with.

	03-02-2000 06:13									#33
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Leonardo's Workshop (Workship!) upgrades the navy as follows:

Trireme to Caravel at Navigation.
Caravel to Galleon at Magnetism.
Galleon to Transport at Industrialisation.

Ironclads to Destroyers at Electricity.
This upgrade is a downgrade because all you vet ironclads become non-vet destroyers.

Nothing upgrades to Frigate, Cruiser or Battleship. Build the last two at a city with a port facility (Amphibious Warfare) so they start out as vets.

When Magnetism is discovered you lose the effect of the Lighthouse, but if in Democracy
happiness is easier, as a galleon away from home does not provoke unhappiness. (The caravel does - it is an offensive unit)

AU - That bar talk about Liverpool - Such Fantasy - now where have I heard those SF initials?????????????????

Keep on sailing.

----------

Scouse Git (2) and the landlocked city of.....

	03-02-2000 06:14									#34
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Hey Sivro,

I'm sure my friends get tired of hearing about civ ... so finding Apolyton has spared them my monologues

One nice thing about Galleons is they don't make your republic or democracy unhappy and they carry more units and they do upgrade to leo's transports which everyone likes--warbird or trader.

AU

	03-02-2000 06:16									#35
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Sivro: Right on friend. Please keep posting in this forum, you will find great debates on our favorite subjects.

	03-02-2000 06:21									#36
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SG: Thanks, that clears up alot. In any type of military strategy, the Triad of ground, air and sea all can be used in concert - with great effectiveness. My style, though, is not to build a powerful navy - against the AI it is just not necessary, IMVHO.

	03-02-2000 06:57									#37
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SG2 - you forgot the Cruiser -> AEGIS upgrade (with Rocketry). Possible only if you can hold off researching Automobile long enough.

	03-02-2000 09:12									#38
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Aurelius -

Good points re: galleons. I guess I was down on them in that game because I had built the Statue and had switched to Communism so I wasn't concerned about the happiness factor. Also, I had been using my caravels to pick off catapults, caravans, etc. that my enemies had sitting on coastlines. When my caravels were upgraded to galleons, all the fun of picking off helpless units ended. How depressing!

	03-02-2000 09:45									#39
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SG(2),

My favorite bars in SF are in the lower Haight. One is a world famous beer pub called Toranado....great beer! The other bar is called Mad Dog in the Fog. This later pub has an English/Irish conglomeration of folks and everyone in the bar loves to watch soccer on the TV's and "take the piss out of" ignorant American's like me. Such fantasy is born in the willing gullible.... And this 'lovable lout' also made some reference to Liverpool as a boil or boyle or something... but I ignored him. I suppose his little lies were his only revenge after succombing to my 'beer chess' tactics.

I use to play that game called Diplomacy and if my memory serves me right, I could take ships out of liverpool...but alas, I leave my house keys behind too often when walking out the front door of my self-locking flat.

Tell me, do you folks really like Boddingtons? Give me a Barely Wine from Belgium or better, California !

DaveV,

Can you really upgrade from Cruiser to Aegis Cruiser with Leo's given the time and avoidance of Automobile? Never thought of that upgrade but like the idea. Don't think it would ever work in MP.

Sivro,

I rarely use Caravels militarily unless I'm desperate, but I can understand you desire to blow up the pathetic catapults... Doesn't make sense that Leo's would upgrade a fighting boat to an attack factor 0 unit, but it does--maybe the historians will help us out on "this reality'.

Au of SF--And Oakland is Landlocked 'less we pull the drawbridge up on the Golden Gate...

	03-02-2000 14:30									#40
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Dave V
Thanks! You learn something everyday. I don't think I have ever been down that track on the tech tree.

AU
Those early ships can fire in anger. Look out for the Barb King in the BC years. 150 gold is always worth having - and in the Monarchy era it is a lottery win.
Boddingtons is not my favourite, but is drinkable. Some beers don't travel well. A pint of Guinness in Dublin is far better than anywhere else.
p.s. My fleet has orders to sail for SF!
---------
Scouse Git (2)

	03-02-2000 23:34									#41
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Woah! They do upgrade! (Steve!) When I read DaveV's post, I couldn't believe that Cruisers could become Aegis Cruisers. And not being a naval afficianado, I rarely build Cruisers in the first place as they seem to cost too much and my democracy prefers them in moth.

But I had Shakes in the Super Science City with over fifty shields and a significant lead over hapless AI in Tech. My subordinate Super 8 cities were crankin' out freight and ex-diplomats were conscripting 'none' musketeers.

So we built our first cruiser in two turns. And made foolish dash for Rocketry bypassing Automobile. We made it despite two lengthy affairs with Civil Disorder due to lapses in micromanaging a zero Luxury tax during an expansionist war effort against the foolish Celts.

I was telling a friend that there is nothing in CivII I get more pleasure from than a new dialog box. And Sure enough, the Domestic Advisor sent the following message to the Defense Advisor:
www.farmhand.com/Aegis.gif

And now the Defense Minister says that we have 13 Aegis and the Foreign Minister says our power is supreme and reputation...only dishonorable and the attitude advisors has put his signature on the release of the Zeus' moth'd fleet.

AU--don't think I'll try this in MP!

(SG(2)-- But in Such Fantasy, we are not certain whether to conscript a few warrior tourists for Fort Mason to defend us from the Monarch of the Sea of Liverpool; but there are some here that are calling on Da Mayor to head down to the Marina to welcome yet another piece of antiquated maritime--but either way, do tell the captains of your triremes to listen to our wondrous foghorns as in this new world, the lighthouse hath expired--AU )

	04-02-2000 00:05									#42
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LoL! I don't think anyone else will get it, but I am crying!

Aurelius - there is no pillaging in Oakland!

I can't figure out how to get the Auto-upgrade to take effect on the mothballed fleet up in San Pablo bay, surely they could use some of that stuff.

I'm thinking we could sell the new Aegis cruisers and head over to Anfield to buy a decent soccer club; think Liverpool could compete in the MLS??? Westerfeld could live in the Marina, Berger in Berkeley, Fowler in Oakland, Matteo in North Beach, Friedle in the Haight (nice hair dye) and Owen up in Marin with Mum and Dad.

I haven't been to Mad Dog in the Fog since I got Fox Sports World on digital cable, but my house sure is missing some of the "atmosphere" you get on lower Haight!

	04-02-2000 00:44									#43
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I think that was sort of the point I tried to make earlier. Unlike the ground units, none of the ships get upgraded to the modern units (if you don't count ironclad to destroyer). The only way to get Cruisers and Battleships is to build them new.

I think most people didn't know about the Aegis upgrade because few would hold off Automobiles.

If it has been done, would someone post a link that lists all of the upgrades?

BTW, my youngest brother lives in the City and is a regular at a number of pubs. Gotta ask him which ones.

	04-02-2000 00:48									#44
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Sten,
Anyone but Manchester....(or so says an acquaintance from Galway.)

SF has this attitude that is bewildering to me being an Easterner at heart. But we do have the luckiest weather! Is it Febuary 3rd? As I ask this, the sky is about to drop and SG will be glad to know we are in for the afternoon--fair weather folks we be.

Rumor has it that Oakland has sent a few Super Iron Clads to suppress our portly 'SF' mirth. So SG had better hurry up if he wants to get a piece of the action. But the Irish mason in me says don't let the mortar cure! But we'll have to concede SG points on the Dubliner's frothy pint!

AU --if Oakland isn't landlocked, then surely San Jose is?!

	04-02-2000 01:05									#45
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Evidently the wind (in SF right now) is so strong that the BofA windows are buckling, and all of the towers are swaying. Yikes!

	04-02-2000 02:07									#46
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Sten,
Yeah, don't send that Camsite to Apolyton today! Though if I look real hard, I can see a freighter in the bay so maybe I can walk down to the local pub and dip my nose in the Guinness during the eye of the SF storm.

Steve, that's right, your brother goes to the school here. I saw Mayor (Willie) Brown, give a commencement speech at State about 3 or 4 years ago--his reputation percedes him and lingers behind in royal truckery. I've always liked the campus and the attitude. There's about four other good bars in the Lower Haight--but the crowds are too young rowdy for me.

Too bad Sten's is pulling tabs off a can of Guinness at home in front of Fox and the weather station...

AU

	04-02-2000 05:14									#47
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I have no idea how to get this thread back to Guerilla Warfare, or the Lighthouse.

You are correct on those cans of Guinness (at least they are Draughts with the CO2 cartridge.) I guess I could also get a roadie from Finnigan's Wake. To Dublin! Cheers.

	04-02-2000 13:07									#48
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Steve:

I’m not sure if this is the information that you need.
I think the upgrade of ground units with Leonardo’s goes:

Warriors to Pikemen at Feudalism
Warriors/Pikemen/Phalanx/Archers/Legion to Musketeers at Gunpowder
Musketeers to Riflemen at Conscription

Horsemen/Chariots to Elephants at Polytheism
Elephants to Crusaders at Monotheism
OR to Knights if you have Chivalry before Monotheism. (Not sure about this as I always head for Mono)
Crusaders/Knights to Dragoons at Leadership
Dragoons to Cavalry at Tactics

Settlers to Engineers at Explosives
Caravans to Freight at Corporation
Diplomats to Spies at Espionage

-----
Sten: For your next OCC map make it SF with four specials:
Foghorn/Footballer/Beer Pump/Fantasy Bar

-----------------
Scouse Git (2)

	04-02-2000 15:30									#49
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SG2 - Phalanxes will upgrade to Pikemen if you discover Feudalism before Gunpowder. I believe that Horsemen upgrade to Knights with Chivalry, and Chariots to Elephants with Polytheism. And you forgot a few:

Catapult to Cannon with Metallurgy
Cannon to Artillery with Machine Tools
Explorers to Partisans with Guerilla Warfare

I love Leo's!

	04-02-2000 16:36									#50
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Dave V - Thanks again. Forgot about catapults as I never build them - but I have to bribe them on occasions! What I didn't realise was the Explorer/Partisan upgrade.

I'm thinking of putting all the Leo's upgrades into one thread, so it can be used as a reference. Before I do this - am I correct in thinking that air units never upgrade via the workshop? (I very seldom build them and when I do Leo's is dead - as I prefer to preserve the Colossus)

------
Scouse Git (2)

	04-02-2000 23:36									#51
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To upgrade Air units you wuld need to get Stealth which requires Laser which requires Mass Prod which requires Auto. I guess it is theoretically possible to do it, but you would need to get Mass Pro from a hut since you couldn't trade around Auto without somebody having it.

SG - I like the SF OCC idea! Home field advantage for Aurelius and me.
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited February 04, 2000).]

	05-02-2000 03:06									#52
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DaveV found away to get back to Guerilla Warfare in the context of Leo's--explorers to Partisans....

Mass Production in a hut...you surely would have to reduce the AI's to pet cities while you pursued Stealth upgrade.

AU

	06-02-2000 04:02									#53
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I don't think it is possible to get air units upgraded. Automobile discovered by any civ will render Leonardo obselete.

	06-02-2000 05:57									#54
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Is it possible to get Mass Production through a hut? Was wondering how the game determines hut tech? Perhaps one can't get a hut tech that doesn't have the required tech tree already developed...that would make Stealth Upgrade impossible unless we cheat.

AU

	06-02-2000 08:32									#55
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I thought we concluded awhile back that after Invention, one doesn't get anymore scrolls from a hut? One of the distant ancestors of Mass Prod is Invention, therefore not possible?

	07-02-2000 23:38									#56
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While it is true that the rules say you can't get scrolls after Invention, I recall reading on this esteemed forum that occurences of strange advances have been recorded. (as have sightings of Bigfoot/Yeti, and the Loch Ness Monster) I would place the probability of getting Stealth before anyone has Automobile somewhere around the probability of seeing one of the above mythical figures.

	09-02-2000 03:14									#57
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It seems to me that I have never received an advance from a hut where I didn't have the prerequisites of that tech. If this is true, the "mass production hut" would be impossible.

	09-02-2000 03:20									#58
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Sivro - the strange advances bug may have been fixed in one of the many patches, I have never seen it happen. (that I can recall)

	09-02-2000 05:00									#59
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Yes Sivro, you are correct. You must have the needed sciences before you can get it from a hut. I have never seen a science given by a hut after invention. But some people claim that they have... so if that rule is broken, any science could probably be gained

	09-02-2000 05:26									#60
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Wow, just got MP today and a copy for a friend. How do I challenge folks?

Sten, do you ever indulge in multiplayer? I'll say this, it isn't an AI friendly game! I tried an OCC game using the fortnight II position and cives were an uncooperative bunch! Oh, are you the mapmaker for the next scenario? Are you going to put some SF barbarians into the next challenge? Think I'll use the V2.42 I purchased for Fortnight 3. (So I hope your Hasbro stock goes up.)

Where's that War4ever? My howitzer's need target practice

AU