20-01-2000 10:55									#1
	guerilla warfare. Full PM-box? Change here!

In my last 2-3 duels I used a technique of guerilla warefare early in the game. Basically I build the Light house which gives vet triremes that can travel through ocean, and send send a horde of triremes loaded with diplomates at the enemy to steal, destroy city improvements/wonders being built. There's not much you can do against that since the triremes coming are veterans. It's very funny: oh! aqueduc destroyed, oh! library destroyed,....
Works very well against perfectionist opponents.

	19-01-2000 23:28									#2
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That is fun. I love diplo attacks.

	20-01-2000 00:16									#3
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The real key to that approach is the Lighthouse (one of the most under rated wonders in MP)

I love when they finally get pissed at you and decide they are going to stop you... and can't! Nothing funnier than watching 3 triremes come out of a city to attack you, and they still can't sink your ship.

The only defense to this is to keep cash on hand, and have a few diplos out of site near your vulnerable cities... hoping to catch one of his ships if he makes a mistake.

	20-01-2000 00:28									#4
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The Lighthouse is a wonder I've never built. Are you saying it makes your triremes unbeatable?

	20-01-2000 00:30									#5
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I think it makes them vet... so yes - makes them very hard to sink.

	30-01-2000 09:48									#6
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The Lighthouse is one of the worst wonders. I've got better things to do than to build a navy full of triremes. Instead of building the Lighthouse, I could be building the Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, or Great Library.

	30-01-2000 09:53									#7
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Lighthouse + steam engine before magnetism=vet ironclads.Throw in Magellan's and there is no defense before coastal forts.Even then...

	30-01-2000 10:16									#8
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Vet ironclads before magnetism? You have a very narrow window of opportunity to build them. Magnetism comes quickly after steam engine. Not really worth the effort.

	30-01-2000 10:39									#9
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Total domination of the seas for 2000 years is worth building the lighthouse.
No fear of huge enemy armies landing, and you can prepare you own landing operation without fearing to loose your triremes as soon as they get close.

	30-01-2000 11:07									#10
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I see your point, but to me there's no greater setback than letting someone else build the Great Library. I've never had anything positive come out of this. It makes you think twice before trading technologies or even conquering cities because you know that someone else is going to cash in on your good fortune. To me, the top two wonders are the Library and Mike's Chapel - period.

	30-01-2000 16:18									#11
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Sivro

I once thought it was impossible to have a decent start to a game without the Great Library. Now, I never build it.

The advantage of the Lighthouse, apart from the veteran ships, is the early boost it gives to your exploration and trade. Caravans can be delivered in safety over long distances. I reckon that trading with another continent is about three times faster with the Lighthouse. You have the extra movement, but most important, you don't have to go around all the coasts.

As far as the military is concerned - the civ that rules the waves, rules the world.

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Scouse Git (2)

	31-01-2000 01:26									#12
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I too never thought that a navy was that big a deal until i started playing MP civ. I have lost too many ships due to people who build the Lighthouse... (damm you Ming) and we mongols are not known for our seaworthiness anyways

Still i agree that the lighthouse is a great wonder and vastly underated. However i don't underate it anymore.....

	31-01-2000 18:53									#13
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All right, all right, you have convinced me to give it a try. I agree that a strong navy is key, but I usually develop this later in the game when I have access to cruisers, subs, and battleships. I have just started a new game and I am going to employ this strategy. I thought I knew just about everything there is to know about civ2 until I came to this site a few days ago. I had never really thought of building an early navy, but it's a fresh concept for me to try. Thanks; I'll let you know how it goes.

	01-02-2000 10:03									#14
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Sivro - there is a thread titled "A List of Data" from Caesar the Great from a while back that contains some discussion of the science cost of additional advances that may help talk you out of the GL. The reason I avoid it is that it ends up slowing me down to Mikes/JSB by not letting me streamline my research path.

Welcome!

	01-02-2000 01:23									#15
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Are you folks serious about Lighthouse and Triremes! Not being a Multiplayer yet, I rarely build triremes and never build lighthouse--NEVER!

Triremes take too long to build and lighthouse is a Charybdis of early year resources when settlers and more valuable wonders are called for.

Of course, having said such, I suppose a boat load of veteran chariots is something to fear. And first contact and mapmaking is important. Hmmm, and some dips tipping huts and stealing tech....hmmm. Perhaps my sword is dulled on rock-headed AI--but TRIREMES in non-OCC?!

I'm never happy to see a couple catapults land in the woods next to my fortified warriors. I wonder what is in store for me in this MP world? My new version of Civ should be here any day.

Scylla

	01-02-2000 01:29									#16
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I too used to have disdain for the Lighthouse.Not anymore.SP or MP.Try the Gardens and the Lighthouse together.Very powerful

	01-02-2000 02:52									#17
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Well, since I've never had an opinion of my own (here or elsewhere):

Try the Super Ironclad, it's lethal!

Carolus

	01-02-2000 03:08									#18
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As far as the military is concerned - the civ that rules the waves, rules the world.

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no way!!!!!!i usually haven't got a ship unless i need a transport(and i only need a few or so to attack the coastal cities and then the Ai is already beaten(without the navy they're nothing)...even when they have a strong navy, i'm way ahead on techs and have coastal fortresses, so the only occasion i fear the AI is right at the start of the game and when they discover the ALMIGHTY howitzer!!!


------------------
ThermiteB(that's me!) RLZ like HELL!!!!!!!!!!

	01-02-2000 07:32									#19
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Trajanus:

We all have our favourite ways of beating the AI. I use things that float.

You mention the "almighty howitzer". It can shoot twice and ignores city walls. An ironclad ignores walls and can kill several defenders in one turn - and you don't have to wait for robotics either!

Much will depend on the game/map/objectives, but if you exploit a navy you will never fear a howitzer again. You will have crushed the other civs before they even dream of robotics.

Think of an ironclad as a "howie" that floats. Head for Steam Engine!!!

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Scouse Git (2)

	01-02-2000 08:23									#20
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Hey SG,

Howitzers ignore city walls .... and coastal fortress and unit defense. I've rarely seen any unit survive one attack from a vet howie....on the other hand, can't remember how many times I've seen the Super Iron Clad sink to a fortified musketeer behind coastal fortesses.

Still, I read your earlier post and noted the trade aspect of lighthouse...Ming's vet triremes sound pretty invincible. Still....guess I'm going to find out soon.

Smash, in single player, unless I'm on an island or strange peninsula, I don't like having a navy. The AI seems to operate well in the sea and relies on numbers--lots of ships...lots of cruise missles later. But on land, the AI is so bad militarily.... So I tend to ignore the sea in single player.

But in multiplayer, I'm weighing the advantages and disadvantages--quick trade and guerilla warfare?! (hit and run )

AU

	01-02-2000 15:43									#21
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AU

The AI is just as bad on water as it is on land. It never tries to escort troop ships from attack by stacking an ironclad with a galleon etc.

Sure - if you come across a coastal fortress, the game is over in that city, until your spies can destroy the defence.

If you are playing a warlike naval game spies are vital. They can find out about the fortress (free) before you waste a ship. It is interesting to note that if you give a spy "her primary target", and pick city walls, you get a special message about how risky sabotage is in a capital and against walls. There is no such warning if you ask the spy to destroy the coastal defence. The fortress is easier to sabotage than walls as she is not caught so often before her finishing her task.

I think the overall message I'm trying to convey is this:

Sea power will allow early exploration, with efficient and safe trading on different continents. Whatever game you're in - you must trade. A strong navy (early on) will mean the AI will never be allowed to sit back and research howies and missiles.

In one really funny game there was a perfectionist civ in demo. This was a bit disappointing for my caravel stuffed with three diplos, as bribing was impossible! Next turn, the barbs appeared on their patch, so the ironclads blasted away the defenders, and the barbs took the city. I bribed it the turn after. I then owned the Pyramids.

Try messing about in boats!

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Scouse Git (2)

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 01, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited February 01, 2000).]

	02-02-2000 10:20									#22
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Good thinking SG(2)! I bet the city was a whole lot cheaper too!

	02-02-2000 02:45									#23
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SG(2),

Don't know how many there are of you, but I'll assume your wearing your printer's hat.

It's hard to break old habits. I've been playing diety Civ for nearly a year and I only learned of the super city back in December. I've finally tried using a super science city in an ICS game. Seems like a much harder game with more than one city to deal with. Keeping luxuries on zero while letting the one city work is not so easy! I'd read somewhere that the subordinate cities don't build aqueducts....

So now I'll have to try that Super Iron Clad strategy a few times. By the way, I use to do great without trade ! Ignorance was bliss...

But I'm afraid I'm sold on trade now. And last night I was devastated in my ICS game when the AI chose to slay my two camels rather than defend their last city. I still only have one trade route in the super city!

BTW, I tried that barb trick you mentioned in one of my three attempts at the OCC 4 whale comparison game. The Barbs refused to take the city! I was dumbfounded! Of course, I wasn't planning to bribe it cheaply. My Battleship ( ) just wanted to wreak havoc on the Zulu.

So far, I keep the trireme's moored in SF.

	02-02-2000 03:41									#24
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Live Photo of Aurelius' Trireme docked off of Alcatraz...
http://www.sfgate.com/liveviews/skydeck.shtml

Note coastal fortress!

	02-02-2000 05:35									#25
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Sten - you have a wicked sense of humour!
Thought you might have gone to New Hampshire to give them some laughs. It's exciting over there at the moment. All the favourites seem under pressure - but my vote would go to the guy who tossed the pancake!

AU

Like you, I never realised the power of trade until reading these threads. I think the enduring attraction of CIV 2 is the variety of stratagies that it is possible to use in various circumstances. Every game is different.

p.s. SG (1) is the guy who knows about computers. I am the printer. There are only two of us! Do we seem like more?

Good luck with those ironclads.

-------

Scouse Git (2)

	02-02-2000 06:59									#26
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SG(2),

I take it you can't swim off the shore of Liverpool these days...the weather in SF was so good Today that I can imagine the tourist swimming to Alcatraz.

AU

	03-02-2000 03:03									#27
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Getting on this pretty late, so it's probably all moot...

In my experiences, the AI is stupider on the waves than on land, even at the hardest levels. I've had AI vet ironclads attack my coastal cities with riflemen behind city walls - with no success. Personally, I don't bother with navies except for transports and a few battleships just for the fun of it. The key against the AI is a pre-emptive offense with a good defense that you can leave alone.

	03-02-2000 03:28									#28
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Steve Clark -

I agree with you. I am in the middle of a diety SP game where I tried the Lighthouse/trireme strategy. I didn't really have a lot of success with it. Don't get me wrong, I will win the game as I usually do (I have STWA pumping out vet cavalry and fanatics while the rest of the world just discovered musketeers). While I do have the upper hand in this game, I don't think it is because I built the Lighthouse. The problem with the Lighthouse on diety level is that you must spend tons of time early in the game just trying to keep your people content. By the time you have temples/Mike's Chapel/JSB, someone is close to discovering Magnetism. I think the Lighthouse strategy would work well on lower levels, but on diety it is simply too difficult to fully take advantage of it. Thus, I will stick with my original assertion that building the Great Library early is usually the way to go. It works great no matter what the situation. If you are behind on technology, the Library sets things straight. If you are ahead on tech, the Library keeps it that way. I believe this even though it might slow down your research and hamper a deliberate path to wanted techs. No one can convice me that building the Library is "bad for science".

	03-02-2000 03:51									#29
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Steve,

While it's true that AI doesn't use navies too well, the numbers strategy works better at sea than on land. Speaking of Units and not cities, there are no fortresses at sea or roads/railroads to affect movement(thus strategy and tactic)...so I find my sea units to be more vulnerable to the randomness that benefits the numbers strategy. (I've had a lot of ships sunk at sea due to the appearance of AI ships from nowhere!)

The one thing that makes sense in using the lighthouse with triremes is filling it with dips and caravans. Also, Leonardo's might compliment the strategy from a military perspective as ships take so long to build.

Still, unless there are many continents and islands, landpower seems most important and the variation of terrain seems like an ideal situation for the human player.

AU

(Oh, I always thought Liverpool was a coastal city, but someone at a bar told me it was land locked--I could consult a net map but I figure someone at Apolyton would know.... )

	03-02-2000 04:06									#30
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Sivro:
Good to have your comments and experiences. You and I play alike (even though I may be too much a conquest fanatic). We discussed awhile back about the GLib and like everything in Civ, there are numerous opinions. But like you, I now do the GLib for exactly those reasons you mentioned. My typical goal is to race up the tech tree to Rocketry and then let loose against the remaining civs. Glib and STWA helps in that respect. I'm not surprised that the trireme/LH strategy didn't work because two of the most critical goals in the early game are:
1) Get the happiness wonders ASAP. If your opponents are researching Magnetism while you are building JSB, you are behind. BUILD CARAVANS EARLY AND OFTEN to build Wonders. In my last two long games, I built all of the Wonders (from Colossus, GWall on down) with caravans, some within one turn.
2) Get the science city crankin' by pumping caravans to it and also, get the three trade routes from it established.

Aurelius:
Point taken. Much to my dismay though, I have found that Leo does nearly diddly-squat with naval vessels. Upgrading triremes to caravels to frigates(?). Oooooh. I don't think it upgrades destroyers to battleships or other modern vessels. I may be wrong about this, just trying to remember one game where I expected an upgrade and didn't get it before Leo expired.