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poppawoppa
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Chico, CA USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:12
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For some time, I have had little use for diplomats, except to establish embassies so I could have inside intelligence.
However, recently I was playing a Diety game where I built quite a few diplomats as a way of having some on hand to bribe a stream of barbarians which were cursing (or cruising?) the land and seas. During the mid game, the hordes seemed to come to a stop, and as I was trying to conquer a good size city (with less troops than I should have had), I sent the dips from my nearby cities to see if I could get the "walls to fall down." Imagine my surprise when the 3rd or 4th dip got the walls.  Another time, I had sent a dip to a city (in early game) and knocked out the wall on the first try. My question is:
Is there a specific sequence to what the dip will be able to sabotage? Like, if the city had a barracks, temple and granary, would the dip sabotage the targets in the order they are listed on the city improvements schedule?
Another question: When I had successfully stolen a tech from a French city, the next dip didn't even get the option to steal tech for quite a long time. I noticed that also in the recent game, I got a couple techs from the two nearest cities, but then my dips were unable to even get the chance to steal for a number of turns (maybe even until I had completed the tech that I was researching), and after that, I could get the offer to steal tech again. How does that work?
I know with spies you can even direct them to try to steal a specific advance....but it seems to me that even then you can't steal from the same civ/city for a few turns, since the citizens are even more vigilant about spy stealing for some period of time. Is this your experience too?
Several posters here say the dips and spys are too powerful. I agree the spy has some very very good options....but, I haven't really gotten the lowdown on the power of the diplomat yet. Comments, anyone?
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Dipping isn't as tricky as defending against dips.
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MyOlde
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Haliburton, Ontario, Canada
Jun 1999
time: 05:12
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I'm currently up against 2 civs who are in democracy? I would rather bribe a city and get all its valuables than destoy it. Is there a way to use a few diplos to do "industrial sabotage" and then walk in and bribe? Can you bribe a democracy when a city is in "disorder"?
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Graag
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London
Nov 1999
time: 05:12
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"'In short dips and caravans are the two units necessary for survival in all civ games.'
That is a brilliant statement, Prince War4.
In one AC game, I built ONLY dips and spies for defending my territory, bribing everything that comes my way. For bloodlust, dips and spies are the most powerful military units against non-democratic AI civs.
Without caravans... well, I shudder at that thought. Actually, that might be a good challenge for an Emperor/Deity game?"
Yah, I played a game like this for fun. I won by 1800 (forget the date) on a large map with 7 civs, without building a single caravan or diplomat. I killed a total of 11 civilisations all in all. It is just as easy as using dips and caravans, by 1800 I could have bribed the world I had so much money saved up. I missed caravans for wonder building, but it was still not hard. And I never switched to democracy,republic or fundamentalism, either, just to make it a little bit tougher (although I did build SoL and go into communism).
Graag
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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face
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Mark_Everson
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Canton, MI
Jan 1970
time: 00:12
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MyOlde:
Your solution of wanting to bribe them isn't right anyway IMO. You will bribe them paying say 600G. They can buy back their city for usually about 1/3 of what you paid (factor 2 price reduction for their original city, and usually much closer to their capital than yours). Bribing enemy cities is only to your advantage when combined with a strong attack that can keep enemy diplos away from the city. (Exception, if your treasury is in the thousands and theirs is near zero you could break even.) Or its sometimes worth it if you need to get a particular tech.
If you choose to ignore my advice about the folly of bribing any old city, the only thing you can do is try to knock them out of democracy. It can be done thru 'arrow starvation' (only to an opponent who hasn't see it, isn't good, or is overwhelmed with other details). You need a lot of units near a moderate or large enemy city. The technique assumes the enemy doesn't have a large reaction force, and other caveats you can probably figure out.
This operation will cause the government to collapse due to successive turns of unrest in the same city. I won a pretty much deadlocked game with it once
Turn 1: Plop down units on 1/3 the arrow-producing squares of the city. This will usually throw the city into disorder. When its their turn the other player will bring the city back into order, but usually just by a bit...
Turn 2: Remove as many further arrows as you can. Ideally at least another 1/3 of the total or more. Immediately end your turn so he has little time to set things right.
This operation will cause the government to collapse due to successive turns of unrest in the same city.
Once the government collapses you need to get the diplos in quick, and have a substantial cash hoard on hand to exploit it. The window of opportunity will only last a few turns, so you must break your enemy within those turns. This is just a new version of the 'shield starvation' method to attack a city in republic or democracy. Has worked great for me, but YMMV.
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MyOlde
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Haliburton, Ontario, Canada
Jun 1999
time: 05:12
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Mark, I appreciate your counsel but I have bribed quite a few cities and can only recall being bribed back maybe once. This is at Emperor level.
Assuming you're correct, however, what is your approach? An AI city almost always has city walls so you have to assemble and use up quite a few units pounding away. You're using up your units and reducing the city whereas through bribery you get a city in pretty good condition.
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poppawoppa
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Chico, CA USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:12
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Thanks for the tips. On a related theme, if you have had your troops pound the AI into submission, having destroyed the City Walls, is it advisable to have your Diplomat bribe the city after the troops are gone, or if you could wait one turn so the city goes into disorder due to no troops inside (gotta be the right kind of government, I know), would it lower the bribe price enough, to pay that in an attempt to save the city improvements?
I know that is a "it depends" question. But does anyone know is the cost of bribery just a little less or a LOT less when there are no troops inside?
I have always liked being able to move in one of my "yellow" or "red" strength troops and have him healed to full strength green upon his entering the city. But If I could keep the aqueduct, and barracks, and library, for my use rather than have most of the improvements be lost upon my troops marching in, it would be interesting to see how much less it might cost.
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BlackJack
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There are those, I won't say who(head hanging in shame), who save just before sending their troops in. And if they don't like the improvements that are left, they restart and do it again. Sometimes you get the walls, or the airport; it's like you'll randomly get either of two sets of improvements left - temples always go. … But you've got to be a real low life to do that.
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05-02-2000 10:43
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