22-10-2000 23:42									#1
	Strat: Harlan Thompson's World War II: The European Theater Scenario Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

*re-posts this*

*decides to post this before the AoW completely becomes a geopolitics forum*

Does anyone have any good strategies for this scenario? I find this to be the hardest out of all WW2 scenarios (yes, including Red Front) and no matter what I do, I can't come up with a working strategy beyond conquering France, yet I have read on the review page that some people have conquered the entire map except for India (which is realistic, if the Axis ever reached that far, the Japanese would undoubtedly be conquering India).

I await the Civ2 Scenario experts advice. *looks in Xin Yu's general direction*

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	24-10-2000 01:25									#2
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Ooops. Harlan is THE person who can make an impossible scenario single-handed. (Even Captain Nemo needs a few revisions to make it happen). Just downloaded the scenario and will start playing tomorrow.

	24-10-2000 08:24									#3
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Checked the rules.txt, events.txt and opened the game to check the status. No units were moved so far.

One tech needs 6700 science, too expensive. Besides the Russian has GL so you are working for Stalin. Decision: set tax 80, luxury 20 (hopefully some cities can celebrate), science 0. Steal techs from the enemies.

Soviet help will come on turn 6 (1000 golds). It's better to attack before that. Also Soviet will get help each turn after the first USSR infantry is killed by Axis. So you must attack very fast -- only a true britz can win.

Plan: rush build vet 88 guns, spies, and italian infantries. From turn 2-5 you should accrue 60-80 guns, 10-15 spies, and some infantries. Sell all science improvements for money. On turn 5 start attack the Soviet. Use 88 guns to attack big cities all the way to Siberia (for the cities close to you use some air force as well). Use italian infantries to hold the cities and the RR so that partisans cannot pillage them. It is not likely to have partisans on RR squares since they tend to appear on rough terrain. The partisans have submarine flag so they cannot attack you. After big cities are occupied, send spies to bribe small cities. A conservative estimate is that you will get half of the Soviet cities in the first turn of attacking. Most likely the Soviet troops are poised at front cities so you should get the far east cities easily. The Soviet will be cut in half with 10 cities on each side. Mass your force in Moscow to hold out the counter attack while your 88 guns are resting. The second blow can finish the Soviet. (of course that is just a plan).

Before attacking the Soviet, all you need is to occupy an allied city and a French city (Preferrably Paris) on turn 1. If you occupy an enemy city on turn 1 you should have all the enemy civ's money (not sure). Don't commit your 88 guns to the fight too much since you need them for comrade Stalin. Use your airforce to destroy the enemy units in the open is good enough. You can use a transport to move a bunker from Hanburg to Amsterdam to deal with air raid.

Plans are plans, they may not work

	24-10-2000 09:40									#4
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Xin:

A good plan... however... You can't steal techs from any allied city except the ones in North America. Can this plan still work when you only have the French and the Soviets to steal from?

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	24-10-2000 13:50									#5
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Let me amend my previous post... you can't even steal techs from the French! Only from the neutrals, Russians... and maybe the Spanish.

I've built up a lot of 88 mm guns... but I'm going to try to take England instead of Russia, the Allies navy is pounding me into the dirt on all fronts. Capturing one of their navy wonders may break them...

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal
[This message has been edited by Cal (edited October 24, 2000).]

	24-10-2000 20:00									#6
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You are only 3 techs behind the Allies and you have at least 6 cities to steal Just remember to steal Democracy from another civ first.

You will not want to attack England first -- if the Russian sneak attacks you it may trigger an event so that each turn the Russian gets a T-34 and a good fighter. You must occupy Moscow and the three cities in Siberia which holds the triggered units to prevent this. Thus, you should attack first.

England cities all have bunkers. Very tough to kill.

First turn occupation does not do you a lot of good so give up the attack on the west and put stormtroopers+anti air on fortress to let the enemy attack you and die. You can put bombers on top of them every several turns to let them recover. The best attack route is from the South -- land an engineer to build a temp city and transport your 88 guns there and roll them to Strasburg and Paris. Don't attack Maseille, Lion, and another city, bribe them when the French lose its capital.

Sell cathedrals, etc. You need instant cash, plus each turn you only have 3 golds from a cathedral for 38 turns (?), less than a one time deal of 120 golds.

Disband other types of units like artillary to save you money when rush building 88 guns.

Do not occupy London too early, it triggers an event and you lose your Great Wall wonder. The event will happen anyway later in the game so just wait till then to attack London.

Correction: the best attacking route is East of Strastberg where you have a bunker. Just build RR there and you can go.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited October 24, 2000).]

	25-10-2000 02:31									#7
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2 88mm guns for every bunker, not that hard actually.

a trans-atlantic spy mission? Where's the best place to sail the transports from, Norway? Or is it better to wait until France is conquered?

I will try your strategy later... what do you suggest for taking care of Greece and North Africa?

Also, the Russians usually sneak attack you in late 1941, or early 1942, they won't attack you before July 1941, which is the historical spot to launch the attack from (2 months per turn... won't let you launch it on June).

Thanks Xin!

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	25-10-2000 07:14									#8
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Cal: for Greek: do not fight trenched wars. Use transports to land troops on a good terrain next to Athens and use a bomber to protect them. Attack the next turn.

Africa: no clue. Allied navy is too strong. Perhaps attack from land via the Soviet Union?

Steal techs: you don't need to go to America. Build a new city and let the Allies have it, or occupy a French city then let the Allies get it from you. Or, if you can get French fight the Allies, you can empty a French city during your turn then let the Allies have it. Once the city changes owner you can steal from it (it worked in MP but I'm not sure if it will work here).

	25-10-2000 10:24									#9
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Silly Xin, for once, I believe I have a better plan than yours.

Bribe a path to Greece with spies, and use the spies to fill the gap so you don't have ZOC problems around Neutral and Turkish territory, you can easily move your 88mm batteries to Greece, there's no need to bother with transports.

Historically, the Axis did take Yugoslavia to get to Greece, but doing that will damage your reputation (have to declare war on the neutrals, and they'll force you to sign a piece treaty after you take one city with the UN wonder).

I completely agree with you for africa... maybe mass speed-building 88mm guns and keeping them away from the coastline would work.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	25-10-2000 20:41									#10
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Cal: I don't know if you can bribe allied forces as they are in democracy .

At the beginning all Soviet forces are weak. But it is building tough units. The longer you wait, the more tough units you are going to deal with. Also you need to occupy the GL city of the Soviet before you start stealing techs from the Allies.

On the other hand, the Allies has all the modern units in England (you don't get the same advantage by attacking earlier), plus it has a strong Navy. The more cities you occupy in the British island, the more forces you need to protect them.

Now this is the scenario you really want to follow Hitler's choics: occupy Strausburg and Paris so the French will talk to you; force the French to declare war with the Allies when signing a peace treaty (so the Allies will fight the French and you don't need to worry about defense too much), and concentrate your forces to invade Russian as soon as you can.

	26-10-2000 03:21									#11
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Xin:

No no no... not the allies, bribe the path from Sofia to Greece through the yugoslavia city limits, but don't actually take the city itself, you can create a chain of spies and staionary bribed rifleman and easily get your 88mm guns there that way.

By the way, I tried invading Russia, as you said, on July 1941, with 55 88mm guns, I haven't completed that turn yet, but I've captured Minsk, Smolensk, Vilinus, Riga, and Moscow ( ) already, using the same chain of spies technique to avoid pointless fights.

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The strategically impaired,
-Cal

	26-10-2000 04:44									#12
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The why not bribe Belgrad directly? Talk to the Neutral first and ask tribute, it will declare war on you. Then bribe the city (no partisan for Belgrad). Spy should enter the city from the opposite direction to Zurich for cheaper bribing price (<4000). Sign a peace treaty again (you have to due to the UN).

	26-10-2000 09:44									#13
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That was the problem... I could never get them to declare war on me.

	27-10-2000 09:53									#14
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You should talk to them on turn 1 if you want a war. And you only have the opportunity to get one (at most 2) cities before the UN kicks in and force you to accept peace. (Edit: oops, can't talk on turn 1).

Here's another approach: use an engineer to build a city South of Sofia then talk to the Neutrals and Turky, force them to withdraw their troops from your city vicinity. This way you don't waste money on bribing infantries, and it also works when bribing is impossible (i.e., there are more than one unit on the same square).

I have a good way to protect the two Norway cities up to the north -- put bombers on the ocean square over a landing craft to block the way of naval bombardment. Navik will lose some units on turn 1 but after that you are safe.

It seems that you evenly spread your forces over the Russian front. Not a good approach! Bypass cities whenever you can and go to Moscow then move your 88 guns to the Siberia! If you don't do that you'll deal with the nasty T-34 tanks.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited October 26, 2000).]

	27-10-2000 02:27									#15
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..Oh... oops... I finished that turn conquering Lvov, Kiev, and Talinn... next turn I already took Leningrad, I figured I could postphone siberia for awhile because there were so many fortified machine guns there... ah... well...

I'm sure I'll do fine, the first russian counterattack killed 3 or 4 88 mm guns and some italian infantries, I was really scared that the cities would be bribed back, but that didn't happen...

	24-05-2001 12:39									#16
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With all the talk about impossible Harlan Thompson scenarios, it seemed logical to revive this topic.

Still haven't beat it... tried once, but I didn't have enough artillery to capture half the soviet cities in one turn, I think I attacked too early.

It's best to do this: Conquer Paris on the first turn, get a peace treaty with the french, then get the french to declare war on the Allies. What's weird is that sometimes the AI can move their fortresses around, even when they have no move points, therefore, you should subvert any french cities that suddenly have 3 or 4 fortresses in them. (Le Havre is a good example).
The best route is to go from Strausburg to Paris, if you don't take Paris, your reputation will be too low for the French to declare peace with you and attack the Allies.

Anyone actually beat this scenario?

	28-05-2001 01:19									#17
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A year or two ago I managed to conquer the entire map. I don't remember how I did it, but I just fought, fought, fought. It may have been on an earlier version though.

JP

	28-05-2001 03:30									#18
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...the entire map?
Are you some kind of freak?

	28-05-2001 04:43									#19
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The trick of this scenario is to invade the USSR as soon as you can, and especially before the Soviets deploy large numbers of T-34's and Stormoviks.

I did this by conquring Northen France, then making peace with the French. Following this I shifted almost my entire army to central Germany, and began rush building 88 guns, FW-190's and JU-88's. Whilst the British were able to liberate some of France, this didn't matter as they failed to push onto Paris.

In early '41 I invaded the USSR. I concentrated most of my forces in the Ukraine where I reached Kharkov in mid 41. Following a break to rebuild my armies, I pushed north to Moscow and captured it in early 1942. After defeating the (very) determined Soviet counter attacks I sent my force off to the Urals and Caucuses to capture the Soviet Cities blessed with Oil wells. After these citites were captured in late 43 it was easy to mop up the rest of the USSR.

The three most important thing to remember when invading Russia are:
1) Don't let your army outrun your airforce- Stormovik's are deadly against ground forces.
2) Keep moving! The Russians will wear down any defence line you attempt to hold
3) Keep a strong reserve held back at all times - often the Russians will come out of knowwhere and cut off a large chunk of your army (I had this happen to me four times at Moscow), but if you have strong reserves, you can counterattack and reinforce the threatened areas.

Its also a good idea not to conquer the southen French and Neutral cities as this will cut off the flow of cash you recieve from these civs, and that money is vital in rush building to counter the Soviets.