22-01-2000 21:28									#1
	Is it MGE or me? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I don't know. Maybe I have bad breath and need to floss more often (my wife says I do).

Try as I might, I can't get all the other AI civs to be friendly with me. One or two of them will start out "receptive" or "cordial" but most of the time they're "uncooperative" or worse. I've tried giving money, techs, et al to them and it works a little bit. But when I request an audience, I get nowhere fast, sometimes even accidently provoking them to war.

I guess I need to use one of my lifelines, huh? The question is... how do make peace with everyone and thereby gain access to their maps, techs, etc? I've only been able to form one alliance in all the games I've played and trading maps was WONDERFUL.

BTW. I promise I'll split all of my winnings on "You want to be a zillionaire" with whomever gives the best answer.

Thanks.

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Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

[This message has been edited by kcbob (edited January 22, 2000).]

	22-01-2000 21:59									#2
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I have MGE as well, and my experience has been the same. Not long into the game, I am always despised by fellow civs. Even if my reputation is spotless and I don't attack anyone or demand tribute, I seem to be hated by all on general principle alone by 1 AD. Generally, I am doing much better than the other civs, but I've always got a smaller, less threatening, military capability. And unlike you, I don't recall ever convincing another civ to share their map with me. Of course, all this animosity makes it significantly more difficult in OCC...
[This message has been edited by shamrock (edited January 22, 2000).]

	23-01-2000 00:15									#3
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MGE clearly makes the AIs dislike you much more than in 2.42. Good thing I have both

___
CtG

	23-01-2000 02:29									#4
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Its the MGE.Night and day with the regular version.You can get maps but you have to gift 4 or 5 techs at once to gain worshipful status which is gone the next turn.If your treasury has any gold at all,they want at least half.Any more than a 4 or 5 tech lead and they want everything(usually key wonder techs) or war.Very annoying and not very realistic.Difficulty setting helps a little but NOT much.MGE OCC cities are routinely overlapped by the ai

One little trick that can get tribute early is to make sure you are the one making contact and try to have 1 movement left.Hopefully they have some gold as it seems you can only get tribute in your first 1 or 2 "conferences".After that most "conferences" result in an unreasonable gold demand followed by war.Often they will declare war for no reason at all.

I think this why many MP games don't have ais involved.You may get some early help from ais but soon you will have devote all resources to fend off ai attacks.The only way I have found to end this is to wipe them out.Then you fall behind nations that have been left to peacefully develop.
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited January 22, 2000).]

	23-01-2000 04:20									#5
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well i agree with Smash... MGE is the most difficult of all the ais and i have every version out there.... and although i often cant get an alliance to last long or if at all, i can get tribute quite easily..... and as i goto war with everyone anyways.... i don't care if they declare or not

I extort tons of money from the ai and i am not one of these players that often builds a huge science city to guide my war machine.

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The circle is now complete, when i left you i was but the learner, now i am the master.
Darth Vader

icq 30200920

	23-01-2000 04:37									#6
	Got spare money?

This has been discussed several times before... I'd find the post... but I don't have the time, or the need to do so.

___
CtG

	23-01-2000 06:58									#7
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That's the way it has usually been for me too at MGE. Just like my current game, i jump ahead in techs, all gang up on me and then I start to clobber (I love that word) them with my superior military units. Come on, it's the AI, I just don't care if they like me or not. Reputation against the AI? Oooooooh, must take care of that

Great, now I'm sounding like our friend war4ever. But that's the way I play. I always end up destroying them in the end.

	23-01-2000 11:19									#8
	Tired of ads?

Steve a man after my own heart... hehe i love that word clobber as well as thats what happens no matter how nice i am

I go for AC but the damm ai just pisses me off hehe

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The circle is now complete, when i left you i was but the learner, now i am the master.
Darth Vader

icq 30200920

	23-01-2000 17:25									#9
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i'm not sure, but what about massacring some of his cities, he'll beg for peace(you're much much stronger of course) and maybe then u can demand some tech-trading or so...

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ThermiteB(that's me!) RLZ like HELL!!!!!!!!!!

	23-01-2000 20:34									#10
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Traj: Typically no one has anything I need. Either I'm ahead of everyone or like I've been doing recently - getting the GLib - I get everything I don't have from them anyway.

Here's an example of what happened last night in my current game against the AI. As usual, I'm way ahead on techs - the only one with Musks right now. The Russians have been harassing me from the east with about 12-16 Elephants and Catapults around 3 of my cities. My response? No peace, no cease fire, no nothing. I just let them attacks those 3 walled cities with 2 Musks each and in 2 turns, they all end up dead. I just make sure there are no caravans in the way. In the meantime, I'm loving my science city to 17, building Darwin in one turn and keep accelarating up the tree so when they have musks, I get rifle, etc. Now if I can only find the locations of the German, Carths and Indians....

	24-01-2000 21:23									#11
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It's the same thing all over again. As in every bloodlust game I've played, this basically happens:
0. Get all of the Science wonders plus Mike, Bach and Leo
1. Get Musks first
2. Take out some nearby cities
3. Go to Democracy, get SoL
4. WL the SC
5. Race up the tree to Rocketry
6. Change to Fund
7. Build cruise missiles, alpines and bombers
8. Take out all remaining (large) cities defended by Musks and Rifle

Same ol' stuff. I really need to start playing more of those scenarios. There I get to fight with units I've never fought with: Crusaders, Knights, Cannons, Legions, Frigates and a host of customized, historical-based units.

Or maybe I need to take Sten's advice on customizing the rules.txt file.

	26-01-2000 04:52									#12
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Steve do you have pre modern warfare of just defend??? i am always on the warpath myself.... although i was playing a game without the autosave on and it crashed just when things were going hostile.... and on a large map.... 10 -15 cities until conquest?

	26-01-2000 21:40									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Let me give a specific example in my current game of how I feel about reputation.

I had been attacking 5 German cities (size 12) with cruise missiles, battleships and alpines. In five turns, all were captured. Before continuing finishing them off and starting on their Zulus neighbors, I turned the opposite direction and set my sights on the Russians. I was at peace with them and they were the #1 civ - even though they are quite behind me in tech (they have 24 cities). I didn't want them to catch up, so I'll just surprise them. Here was the scenario:

1. Send emissary, deamnd tribute - they said no
2. Park alpines within 3 squares of their first 2 cites and have about 12 cruise missiles within range
3. Send emissary, demand tribute - they said prepare for war
4. I said, already prepared, proceeded to capture those 2 cities and forward the cruise missiles/alpines
5. Russian emissary comes to me (probably shaking in his boots), I ignored him
6. The UN said I must accept their peace
7. I said, sure, whatever
8. Proceeded to capture a size 12 city with 3 cruise and 1 alpine, forward more cruise/alpines
9. Foreign minister said that my reputation has been damaged
10. I fired my foreign minister
11. Repeat Step 8.

War4: Somewhat unclear on your message, sorry. I had in past took out a neighboring civ with musks, as well as with cavalry/riflemen, but I had never gone to total warfare until after accelerating up the tree in Democracy and then switching to Fund. I would love to learn how to do total warfare earlier, especially with Renaissance troops (assuming 7 civs, normal/large maps). Can you (or others) share any experiences on this?

	27-01-2000 02:37									#14
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Steve:

Sometimes I play a horrible map. Large world/ small landmass/archipelago. The scenario is set for mid-game conquest. The most important goal is SOL. Other wonders you can pick up on the way are great. (For this map Lighthouse, Magellan, are useful/essential)

The early stages are not classic ICS – but I do expand – but don’t wish to hit the top of the Powergraph too early. During this period I play “Nice Guy”, giving a tech or two away for AI maps. (You can’t conquer, if you can’t find em)

As soon as SOL is complete become Communist or Fundamentalist. (The latter is quicker) If in Fundy it is important, ironically, to have the happiness wonders. On the one hand, they give you tithes to expand your treasury, and on the other, they deny the remaining civs these wonders, which makes it far more difficult for them to sustain a democracy. (You always want the bribe option)

If in Fundy, compensate for the loss of science, by building caravans. Half the cities build troops, the rest freights – except for a high production centre to build the wonders.

After SOL, set your research towards Steam Engine for Ironclads – and build them by the dozen. (This map is designed for a huge navy) Espionage is very useful – remember you have to steal many of your advances.

The rest is where the game takes you – all without a plane or cruise missile in sight!

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Scouse Git (2)

	27-01-2000 03:31									#15
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LOL Steve Clark...... the way you told that storry is hilarious, i think we both relate to the "ok, i have let you bug me enough, time to show you what a real military is all about"

I just find i can't get along with other civilizations and its not about territory either, its all those demands they give you for no damm reason, eventually i get annoyed.

However for my SP train of thoght :

I tend to expand in a fashion where i try to maximize growth but without compensating my science, ie now luxuries without WLTKD, Stay in Monarchy for a Long time until i can go communist and then fundy if need be.

however, i am not one for letting weak civs get in my way durring early expansion. I often get many units from huts and will eliminate usually one civ from that.

I like putting the ai on the defensive as soon as possible, no point letting there growth get out of hand

dips are a great weapon and chasing barb kings allows for alot of early bribes or wonder creations, heck i dont' even micromanage.

However my biggest thing i do is just come relentlessly at the ai, being hostile all the time and eventually i am at war with everyone. It takes me probably longer to conquer the ai than most of the good players here, as i tend to soften them up in stages as we progress through the ages, but if i am not on drugs, containing them isn't difficult when your tech is always better than someone elses is

I attack with what ever i have be it cannons nukes alpine troops legions and a host of others, i enjoy showcasing my technology to the masses

So STEVE.... i ask you, do you contain the ai like i do or do you prefer just modern warfare ?

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I am a civ addict. ARE U 2??????


icq 30200920

	27-01-2000 04:40									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

War4: Great thoughts and question. I gotta get home now, the snow is coming down pretty good here in Colorado. I'll post again in the morning.

	28-01-2000 10:57									#17
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War4ever,

I'll take your last question first. No, I don't always prefer modern warfare. It seems I tend to finish clobbering all of the remaining civs with modern units because I like to fight with a significant quantity and quality advantage. That usually means waiting until I can produce a dozen quality units per turn. Like you, that does take time since I am very methodical in attacking with most of my forces against only part of theirs.

Where we perhaps differ is that I don't put the AI on the defensive in the early game. My first military priority after Monarchy is to build the Great Wall (with caravans) and make sure each city has two units (usually Phalanx). In most of my games (since I play on normal/large maps), I've been lucky to have been fairly isolated. So, I just let the Barbs and nearby AIs attack me - they always end up decimated. I may lose one unit in a city, but they are quickly replaced by switching from the usual caravan unit. After the Great Wall, my next military priorities are Sun Tzu and then Leo (all with caravans). Leo usually happens very early AD and then I'm set until about the 1800s. So far, I have not had any enemies that could take any my cities, so I just let throw themselves at me (and making sure the caravans are out of harm's way).

What I do offensively in the meantime is to use diplomats to bribe key units (even though I had trouble in my current long game of getting NONE units) and use a force of Musks to take out some enemy cities that are close to me. Sometimes I'm able to wipe out one or two civs at this stage, depending how lucky I am in exploring their territories.

I do talk to enemy leaders, sign peace treaties with those closest to me. I will break it eventually, but that provides me with more breathing room. Also, in nearly all cases, I am significantly ahead in techs and I usually can exchange 2-3 techs with them, giving them nothing that could hurt me. They think it's a win-win but I make sure that it is to my advantage. The Great lib also helps in keeping ahead of them, I get about 8 techs that way.

As far as they coming to talk with me, I let them. I basically do the 'consequences-smesequenches' thing. With the Great Wall, they ALWAYS back down. And like I said before, sneak attacks and any other attacks are usually suicidal on their part - I let them do it so I can concentrate on building up my 10-12 cities, building caravans, we loving my science city and racing up the tree.

And like Scouse Gits said, my usual production is half the cities building caravans, the other half building military units or wonders. However, I start this very early under Monarchy and keep it through Democracy. Under late Democracy and Fund, I have those half building caravans switch to capitalism - all for the purpose of rush-building numerous military each and every turn. I, at most, only have 6 cities cranking out units, plus whatever cities I capture along the way. With superior forces, I don't plan for a war of attrition.

Whew.

	28-01-2000 01:35									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

wow that was long winded I dont' build enough caravans so i often have to capture wonders..... like i said, i tend to have a big brawl and end up fighting a war on all fronts.... some times i have intermittant peace but not too often... again its all land based depending on where you start
my biggest weakness if you could call it that is my mid game management, i let the ai catch up a it and then i am into a good fight especially on large land masses

	28-01-2000 05:43									#19
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Steve Clark, I read your posts. We have much in common since I am learning to play too, just the opposite of you I learn to play modern warfare, since I usualy won before gunpowder ( ).

It was called "the rock" strategy in civ1. You build lots of horsemen and expand in all directions. When found AI you dont attack, but find a convinient spot near them (mountain, hill) and fortify to stop them expanding. Horses early in the game mean your borders will be far from your cities, and thus you will need no phalanxes. AI attitude for you is set mostly by number of units, so all those little warriors you keep to make happy cities make you Supreme.

You will use triremes and crusaders to conquer the world, when time comes.
Hope this helped.

	28-01-2000 15:21									#20
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Hey War4ever,

Just ordered multiplayer, so you better be ready for war

Was reading Daves and Vets last posts. My strategy has always been to avoid war until the late years. I found that attacking and destroying AI's slowed down overall science. So I started playing a smaller game of 8 to 12 cities. Usually there was a geographical territory I viewed as mine and never allowed AI's to encroach.

With the group of cities, I make them each super developed cities with high production and anti-pollution and lots of science capacity.

I would make minimal attack units. Just strong defensive units. But after discovering Mobile Warfare, I'd turn up my science to get Robotics. And in all my 'HOME' cities, I'd crank out 1 turn Barracks and then start 2 turn Tanks....and then crank out a 25 to 50 howitzer brigade. Some engineers and spies are good too.

Then all AI's are in trouble. But delaying the attack until after Robotics allows one to trade for sciences and also conquest for science.

But I never build the Great Wall...never. Is it considered a good multiplayer wonder? I here MGE is tougher. Funny, I also don't bother with Sun War. I do like Leo's though

AU

	28-01-2000 21:37									#21
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ran into the Mobile Warfare problem for the first time last night. In my methodical quest of destroying the Russians, they had researched Mobile Warfare and in capturing their next city, I HAD to take it I didn't want it because I love cranking out vets from Sun Tzu. I wished there was a way to choose whether I want to take it or not. Guess I have to interrupt my war machine and build barracks.

	28-01-2000 21:56									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I thought STWA expired when anyone discovered mobile warfare?

	29-01-2000 10:00									#23
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Steve, what does WL the SC mean?
On another note, regarding tough AIs in MGE, I find they relax more, the more human players there are. That is, in a 1 player game none of them want to be my friend. When I'm playing with my friend, I can get the Egyptians to be my ally for the entire game. When i'm playing with 2 friends, I've been able to trade maps with ALL the AIs, one by one, starting with the weakest and working my way up without having to give away any technology at all, just making peace treaties.

	29-01-2000 01:53									#24
	Remove this text

crow: That was the problem, the Russians had Mobile Warfare and that was the only tech they had that I purposely didn't research. When taking a city, the game automatically gives you a tech you don't have.

But to answer your question, I had been turning out vets up until that time. I don't remember at what point they had discovered MW. I generally thought that the expiration of wonders ONLY happens when you get the advance, not someone else. I'm usually ahead in techs in all of my games that I had never experienced this. Can anyone prove crow's point?

Genghis: Sorry, I got carried away. WL the Sc means 'We Loving the Science City' which is purposely growing the Science City by one citizen each turn through, generally, manipulating the lux rate so that you have at least 50% of your citizens happy (and no unhappy ones).
[This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited January 28, 2000).]

	29-01-2000 03:15									#25
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Steve- well I know that Collossus expires when anyone gets flight and KRC expires when anyone get industrialization; I just assumed this was true for all the wonders that expire.

	29-01-2000 03:54									#26
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ya wonders expire regardless of who discovers the techs

Collossus-Flight
Great Library-Electricity
Great Wall-Metallurgy
Hanging Gardens-Railroad
Lighthouse-Magnetism
Oracle-Theology
King Richard's-Industrialization
Marco Polo's-Communism
War Academy-Mobile Warfare
Leonardo's-Automobile

think thats it

	29-01-2000 07:09									#27
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Steve are the russians the only big civ in your current game or are there others as well...

Aurelius..... bring on the MGE i love a good brawl

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I am a civ addict. ARE U 2??????


icq 30200920

	29-01-2000 21:04									#28
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I just thought of another aspect of MGE that I hate. Or maybe I need a patch?

I thought if I went to Democracy, my cities were then impervious to bribery. BUT, (there it is again), I still lose a city every so often to the AI through bribery. AARRGGHH!!!

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

	30-01-2000 01:11									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

AH THE GAME sorry for the caps there.... is still within reach ..... i hate the zulus.... if they get to grow they and the MOngols or Russians can be extremely annoying neighbors.... i haven't played a game with modern warfare in a while.... hell i haven't played SP in awhile.... but this all out brawl your having has inspired me to play another game.... perhaps i will write after each session to let you know what i am doing and to ask what you might do in the same situation

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I am a civ addict. ARE U 2??????


icq 30200920

	30-01-2000 02:54									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

kcbob,

Were your cities in disorder?

Carolus