09-02-2000 01:04									#1
	Can you live without leonardo's workshop? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Can you live without leonardo's workshop?

I do, because I play the ToT fantasy game, where the equivalent wonder is sometimes a little use, more often useless. I think it's fun living without this overly powerful, game-unbalancing wonder.

- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

	09-02-2000 01:19									#2
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In MGE SP, no way, unless I really have to, then I'll adjust...

	09-02-2000 01:36									#3
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A while ago I would have said no, but since playing MP it is unavoidable that you dont get it very often, and it really isnt that big a problem. I will always try to get it, but in MP Great Wall and Sun Tzus are both almost as good as Leo's. I would go so far as to say in some games Leos is just a wonder of conveniance, saving tedious replacing of units. Wall can be a lot better for defense, and sun tzu for war. The main advantage of leos is the settler/engineer update, which don't help too much when you are under attack from some guy with vet dragoons or crusaders who has sun tzu. also, leos updates your pikes (defense against those units = 4) to musketeers (defense=3). And you lose your vets. Case closed.

Of course, having said that, I always go for it, but i dont mind if i dont get it.

Graag

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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

[This message has been edited by Graag (edited February 08, 2000).]

	09-02-2000 02:34									#4
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Well I had that happen once. It wasn't the end of the world I thought it would be. In SP it really is a matter of convience. I can concentrate my city building to city improvements.

	09-02-2000 03:08									#5
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Yeah, not having it is not really the end of the world. Leo's is a luxury, not a necessity.

	09-02-2000 04:41									#6
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due to the lack of warfare especially at that point in the game.... Leos only saves time on an antiquated army. Once the world becomes bogged down with Pikemen, war takes a standstill as we rush through the powergraph for Democracy. I like leos for the upgrade to riflemen and calvalry. However if your talking war, the wall is a wicked wonder. Leos will guarrantee that ifyou are first to gunpowder, that most of your cities are intact

	09-02-2000 05:02									#7
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Yeah war4ever, but there is nothing finer than attacking a city where Leo's has just converted 2 or 3 vet pikeman to non vet muskets

	09-02-2000 05:07									#8
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I didn't realize it converted them to non vets. That's terrible. It isn't easy getting vets in the early game without barracks. Usually they'll die before they become a vet.

	09-02-2000 05:23									#9
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i dont know Ming.... you lost two antiquated troops to my non vet musket the other day

i had leos and i am doing just fine with it thanks

	09-02-2000 07:34									#10
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War4ever...
It would have been a different story against the crusader that was one turn away... too late

	09-02-2000 07:37									#11
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thats the amazing thing about my intelligence reports lol i "knew" you couldnt' hurt me seriously though.... now i am there4ever just to gather more of my intelligence.

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Destroy or be Destroyed.
Conquer or be Conquered.
Strategy overcomes any odds.
Hit first,fast,hit last.
I am not a warmonger, i am just aggressively forcefull.


icq 30200920

	09-02-2000 14:07									#12
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I rarely build any Wonders. This approach strengthens your strats. You don't depend on Wonders, so if you ever do build one it's a bonus.

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*THE DEITY*
#8388924

	09-02-2000 19:38									#13
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Hm...

OK, wonders aren't something to depend on in the sense that your strategy hinges on getting this or that wonder and if you don't it's game over. As always, flexibility and ability to adapt don't hurt.

But building wonders is a way to refine your strategy (lean and mean), whatever that strategy is. Aiming at one specific wonder only to see the evil Romans build it the turn before me, doesn't mean I cut my veins open (although I often consider it, especially if I have spent all my gold rushbuilding).

Carolus

	09-02-2000 20:14									#14
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I agree with Carolus, but would go further to say that building a wonder can determine your strategy for the game. Flexibility is the watchword until you build a killer wonder. Then, go to the limit in exploiting that wonder - you are the only player in the game with its abilities, so use them!

	09-02-2000 21:59									#15
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That's a good thought - wonders affecting strategy. Let me add a few examples of this:

Great Wall: allows you to concentrate on building up productive cities without worrying about building up strong defensive forces (or even offensive for a time).

The SSC Wonders are a strategy in of themselves, that is, the strategy of having a SSC.

Sun Tzu: Building this usually means that you want to go to war early and often -but you will likely be superior militarily.

Building a wonder just to keep it out of your opponent's hands is a strategy as well.

These are just a few throughts in the time I have. Maybe we all can add to this (here or at a new thread) and talk about how wonders affect strategy?

	10-02-2000 10:11									#16
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I agree that flexibility is important, otherwise you end up playing a game with a strategy that is wrong for your current circumstances. However, great flexibility is offered by Leonardo's Workshop. With 25 cities you have to mess about upgrading units in most of them - when you could be building all those caravans - the most flexible unit of the game!
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Scouse Git (2)

	10-02-2000 10:31									#17
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Xin Yu started a thread similar to this subject, "How to make the most of wonders?" (or something), but I don't have the, erh..., "time" ( ) to look for it now.

But I sure would like to know how others think about this. Building wonders to prevent others from getting them is especially effective if you know what kind of player you're up against. A sleezer without HG loses the momentum and if you (not likely) or someone else (more likely) can get Mike's too, it's all of a sudden Finite City Sleeze...

But then again the sleezer got other wonders, probably changing his strategy accordingly...

Carolus

	10-02-2000 08:48									#18
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My first multiplayer victory happened when my opponent built Marco Polo, Great Library and Great Wall very early in the game, and all in his capital. I was toolin around in a trireme and noticed that his island was 3 ocean squares away from mine, so I built 2 more boats and sneakily landed 5 crusaders on his shore, and by the end of the next turn I owned his capital and all his wonders. He retired...

	10-02-2000 17:53									#19
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There are wonders of strategy, and wonders of crutch, and Leo is a crutch. Sun Tzu is a wonder of strategy.

	11-02-2000 03:30									#20
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What does "crutch" mean?

Carolus

	11-02-2000 03:50									#21
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double post, i tell you
[This message has been edited by Graag (edited February 10, 2000).]

	11-02-2000 03:50									#22
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It's a misrepresented crotch.

Graag

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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	11-02-2000 04:58									#23
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lol @ graag..... isnt' that the name of one of your cities

	11-02-2000 05:06									#24
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Hehe, I must remember that.

Graag

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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	11-02-2000 06:19									#25
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Hm, why do I get this feeling that people are mocking me?

OK, here's more Carolus Rex to the slaughter. What does "crotch" (and still, "crutch") mean?

Me not habla ingles very good...

Carolus

	11-02-2000 06:26									#26
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Hmm... could "crutch" be meant as a wonder which helps keep you up, but is not necesary? Like, it keeps you going and helps you go, but you would do it on your own eventually (basing this on crutches that a person would use to walk with, if the had a broken leg or something). I dunno maybe i am just a dumbass and am completely wrong!

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SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky eck ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

	11-02-2000 06:45									#27
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exactly Sandmonkey.... you got it right.... as for Graag and i , we were having a private joke... so Caroulus.... quit being so paranoid seriously though.... mikes is a crutch on deity because it doesn't force you to deal wity happy infrastructure.... which one needs to learn how to do as you will never always get MIKES or BACHS or THH GARDENS

------------------
Destroy or be Destroyed.
Conquer or be Conquered.
Strategy overcomes any odds.
Hit first,fast,hit last.
I am not a warmonger, i am just aggressively forcefull.


icq 30200920

	11-02-2000 06:53									#28
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Paranoid? Me? No way!

It's just that I can't shake those hordes that keep following me...

Carolus

	11-02-2000 07:07									#29
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lol .... i swear they are not my mongol hordes... we don't follow anyone.... in fact my hordes rarely follow me lol