10-02-2000 18:00									#1
	Producing the same trade commodity more than once Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

This is in response to a post by Adam Smith on Ming's cheat thread. In the few games where I've bothered to set up trade routes (heresy, I know!), I've seen several cases where a city could produce the same trade commodity every few turns. I thought until now that this was the "repeating trade commodities" trick, but AS, who should know, implies otherwise.

Speculation: I generally build wonders in a single turn with caravans; usually one of the caravans comes from the city building the wonder. It could be that sending this (non-food) caravan back to its originating city somehow breaks the trade code, causing it to keep cranking out commodities when it normally couldn't.

If this is repeatable, it could have major implications for OCC...

Example: I produce a hides caravan. A turn or two after that caravan is delivered, I can produce another hides caravan. I did this many, many times in one particular game.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited February 10, 2000).]

	10-02-2000 20:11									#2
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DaveV:
Thanks for bringing up this topic. Here is the situation as I understand it.

The Repeated Commodity Trade Strategy I originally posted http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000231.html involves repeatedly sending soome arbitrary commodity to the same destination city. This allows you to develop huge amounts of science and cash using the one time trade bonus.

An obviously related question is whether you can get an origin city to repeatedly supply some arbitrary commodity. There are several circumstances in which this might be possible.
1. Rehomeing the caravan from its origin city to another city, such as your super science city, will allow the origin city to supply the commodity again. This does not work indefinately, but it certainly works for long enough (four or five times per city?) that you can make a huge amount of money on the deal.
2. The commodities supplied by a city change from time to time during the game. While nobody seems to know exactly what causes this, we do have some general ideas. http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/000813.html If a city supplies different commodities during a game, then it could send out more than three caravans even without rehomeing. People have apparently used this in OCC games.
3. I seem to remember that some cities will continue to supply some commodity, even after they have three trade route. IIRC, the commodity they supply is invariably hides.

Are there other circumstances in which a city might continue to supply some commodity? Does using a commodity caravan to build a wonder change the commodities a city supplies? (I always use food caravans to build wonders. This makes it much easier to keep track of my trade caravans.) Is there any way to make a city supply somehting other than hides after it already has three trade routes?

The implications of finding a way to repeatedly supply a commodity go far beyond the application. Repeated supply + repeated demand = essentially infinite money and science in any type of game you are playing.

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	10-02-2000 20:37									#3
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Adam Smith - in the game I cited, my capital city was repeatedly supplying *two* trade commodities after I had established three trade routes. I'll have to try to find a save file, but I think they were Hides and Coal. I remember the commodities changing late in the game, but my memory fails me on the details. I'll post again if I find the save file.

	10-02-2000 23:38									#4
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i have seen this in OCC..sort of.I have been, on occasion, able to build 2 hides caravans back to back.Doesn't last and have no idea why this is allowed

i should say i could build 2 hides caravans before delivering anything.So i could build at least 4 caravans before food was the only option.
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited February 10, 2000).]

	11-02-2000 02:03									#5
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Smash , and Dave.... i often get the dreaded oil caravan after i have built my three, which of course NO one demands.... still gives about 58gold or so.... but its useless , when you really think about it.... however after that i build food caravans and then it gives me hides or beads again!! then food again , and then guess what..... OIL again and it repeats this..... anyone else experience this phenomenon?????

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	11-02-2000 02:09									#6
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I'm still not 100% percent sure what causes all these changes but population level and era and certain techs all seem to have something to do with it.The quest continues....

	11-02-2000 15:24									#7
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Adam, If you scan the OCC logs from the first two fortnight games I am certain that you will find most of us clocking up 6 or more trade caravans - and certainly not all hides. I haven't gone and checked so my apologies if I am dreaming...

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	11-02-2000 17:32									#8
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As promised, here is some info from my game where I had lots of repeat commodities. All trade routes are from my capital, Rome, to Berlin, which is on another continent.

25 BC - 3 trade routes (Wine, Copper, Cloth). Supplies: Beads, (Copper), (Wine); Demands: Silk, Hides, Gold
AD 140 - Beads, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: Salt, (Copper), Wine; Demands: Silk, Hides, Gold
AD 280 - Wine, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: Salt, Beads, (Wine); Demands: Silk, Gold, Silver
AD 420 - Wine, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: Salt, Beads, (Wine); Demands: Silk, Gold, Silver
AD 580 - Wine, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: (Salt), (Beads), (Cloth); Demands: Silk, Gold, Spice. Beads, Salt caravans en route to Berlin.
AD 700 - Beads, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: Salt, (Beads), (Cloth); Demands: Silk, Gold, Silver
AD 860 - Beads, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: Salt, Oil, (Beads); Demands: Coal, Gold, Silver
AD 1040 - Beads, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: (Salt), Oil, (Beads); Demands: Coal, Gold, Silver. Salt freight en route to Berlin.
AD 1100 - Beads, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: Salt, Oil, (Beads); Demands: Uranium, Gold, Oil
AD 1180 - Beads, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: (Salt), Oil, (Beads); Demands: Uranium, Gold, Oil. Salt freight en route to Berlin.
AD 1540 - Oil, Copper, Cloth; Supplies: Salt, (Oil), Beads; Demands: Uranium, Gold, Oil

	12-02-2000 10:03									#9
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I think population changes in your destination city can change your available routes as well as the destination city receiving an external trade route. If for example you had three routes going to Berlin and Berlin changed population/technology and then received a caravan from Thebes; your Roman route might get bumped and become available again. By focusing trade destinations to one, or two cities I have seen (been aware of) this more often lately.

	12-02-2000 01:27									#10
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Sten Sture - sounds plausible. But during the undocumented interval between AD 1180 and AD 1540, I built a freight in Rome nearly every turn. Something like this: rush salt freight, deliver beads (?) freight. Next turn, rush beads (?) freight, deliver salt freight. No other AIs were on the island with the Germans, and I really don't think anyone else was establishing trade routes. It probably would be informative to go back and check out the Berlin side of the trade relationship, though...

After further thought, I think I see what SS is implying. Berlin only takes the three commodities it wants most. If I send a freight with a commodity that's less desired, no trade route is established, and the commodity becomes available for delivery again.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited February 11, 2000).]

	12-02-2000 02:18									#11
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After further thought, I'm not really sure what I was implying...

Some things I'm wondering: does the receiving city's production/absence of a commodity that you demand for a reciprocal route have anything to do with the recurrance of the delivered commodity? And does this only occur after both cities have three trade routes. Does the commodities bonus nature impact its ability to recurr - seems like all of the infinite deliverables are low end products. I 'think' I have had multiple routes of the same commodity between two cities, but I might be wrong. I delivered hides for the second time from Gretzkyville to Babylon, I didn't get it as my third trade; which makes some sense since there was an identical trade route in place.

Anyway...

	12-02-2000 02:20									#12
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DaveV - In 540 you had cloth show back up as a commodity that had been filled. Did you deliver a new one or was the system 'remembering' that you had one in place before???

	12-02-2000 02:37									#13
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SS - the latter, I'm fairly certain. You'll notice that I had a Cloth trade route throughout the game. I think it became available again as a commodity, but couldn't be supplied because of the extant trade route.

In response to the demand question, I don't remember exactly what demand/supply conditions were in Berlin. I'll make another spelunking expedition in my save files and report back.

	12-02-2000 03:35									#14
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(I used the word extant on an exam once and got full credit even though I answered the question completely backwards! )

	12-02-2000 03:46									#15
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SS: your homepage is pretty cool!

	12-02-2000 04:06									#16
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Xin Yu - you should see Bloomberg's proprietary service, it is basically a private internet and it is absolutely astounding. It has live research and pricing feeds and runs every kind of technical and fundamental analysis on every type of investment security in the world. I am constantly amazed by it, but for $25,000 a year it better be good!