24-01-2001 00:19									#1
	a guide for us new to alt civs? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I dont follow alt civs mainly becuase it is too confusing. There are projects that have boards here, Free civ, and GGS, and ones like MD which get attention but dont have their own board. then there are several mentioned which seem to be dead, afaik. ANd while MD and GSS seem to be distinct games, one gets the impression that Free Civ is just a Linux port of Civ. I dont have the time or inclination to go hunting websites for each project. It would be useful, therefore, if someone could put up a simple comparitive fact sheet on the different alt civs. What their gameplay goals are, what platforms, what programming languages, current status (this does NOT need to be frequently updated - just would be good to seperate out those at alpha test, those released, those dead for 5 years)

I realize it may come off as obnoxious to ask for this, when im not volunteering to do it - just consider it a friendly suggestion.

	24-01-2001 01:47									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

yeah the alt civs section needs some re-organization...

	24-01-2001 06:34									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That's not a bad idea at all, having a single comparitive chart. It would make it a lot easier to examine the games in an overall manner. As long as we stay away from it becoming a "competitive chart" (because I think they have a tendancy to become so).

If you want me to, and if I can find the time, I might put something together. Don't wait for me to do it, though. At this moment I have roughly one billion and four things to get done this week (and it's already Tuesday!). If I do it, fine. If somebody else beats me to it, also fine

Ron

	24-01-2001 17:06									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

somehow i managed to get the wrong idea, and thought we were talking about a comparison on the game models of each game...

anyway, a comparison like the one "lord of the mark" suggests in much easier

let's see, we've got
- type of game(civ-like, generic 4x, etc)
- design goals
- distribution type(open source, freeware, shareware, commercial)
- current version
- scheduled release date
- platforms(win, linux, mac, os/2)
- programming language
- need of help?

	24-01-2001 17:22									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

as for the game itself:

- graphics(16 bit, 8 bit, etc)
- map(isometric, flat, 3d)
- tiles(square, hexagons)
- unique/generic civs
- victory types
- number of max civs(7,8,16,32...)
- simultaneous moves(yes,no)
- customizable units(ala smac)
- borders
- tile improvement model
- stacks/tactical combat
- goverments(civ2 like, smac se, etc)

more is needed obviously...

	24-01-2001 17:35									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sounds like a great idea! I'll try to put together a list for Clash this weekend.

------------------
Mark Everson
Project lead for The Clash of Civilizations
(That means I do the things nobody else wants to do ;-) )
This Radically different civ game needs your suggestions and/or criticism of our design.
Check our our Forum right here at Apolyton...

	24-01-2001 20:38									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Sounds like a good list to me. I think we may have a bit of trouble getting six games onto one page with all that info, heh.

I would add a couple of items:

Contact (e-mail)
Web page (link)
Discussion (link)
Play types (single player, multiplayer, (hotseat, PBEM, Massive multi, etc.))

Ron

	25-01-2001 05:32									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hi again.

We need to agree on a format, or whoever puts it together will have a bear of a time. I propose that for the short things like most of the items in Markos' lists we look for very short answers and organize it in a table. To my mind that's probably the critical thing, since for most of these games you need a good chunk of a page of text to get at the real meat of what makes 'em different... And that is probably too much for those with a low level of interest to wade thru six or so times.

What do you guys think?

	25-01-2001 05:58									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

just provide the answers in as less words as possible, and let me worry about the format of the resulting page

	25-01-2001 06:12									#11
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I totally agree. That's sort of what was in my mind. One word answers would be good, where possible, and maybe no more than ten words max for any given answer.

We need to keep this all on one page, which will be difficult enough with six or seven games in the list. But if we can do that, a casual observer could quickly scan through and pick out the features most interesting to him or her, and then click on a web link to get more detailed information about the project (that's why I suggested adding the links).

(errr, nevermind, MarkG has already volunteered )

Ron
[This message has been edited by RonHiler (edited January 24, 2001).]

	25-01-2001 11:35									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Okay I can do that. Appears GGS guys dont come here every day

	27-01-2001 05:10									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

OK, so who do I send it to when I'm done? Is it Markos, or Ron, or both?

	27-01-2001 05:20									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

just post it here!

	27-01-2001 08:13									#15
	Tired of ads?

Mine will be reayd in 1-2 days, just gotta coonfirm a few things with the rest of the team.

	27-01-2001 09:04									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Here's ours.

- Type of game: World Conquering 4x TBS
- Play types: Single Player, PBEM, Hotseat
- Design goals: World conquering from Pre-History to Future
- Distribution type: Shareware
- Current version: Alpha 0.4
- Scheduled release date: 2001-2002
- Platforms: Win 9x
- Programming language: C++
- Need of help?: Yes, Documentation and Description Blurbs
- Graphics: Varies (user set)
- Map: 3D Spherical
- Tiles: None (Point based movement)
- Unique/generic civs: Unique
- Victory types: Varies (player set)
- Number of max civs: 30
- Simultaneous moves: Yes
- Customizable units: Yes
- Borders: Yes
- Tile improvement model: Unit based (ala Civ2)
- Stacks/tactical combat: Yes (but computer controlled only)
- Goverments: No

- Contact: RHiler@RJCyberware.com
- Web page: www.RJCyberware.com
- Discussion: news:alt.games.mdestiny
[This message has been edited by RonHiler (edited January 27, 2001).]

	27-01-2001 17:26									#18
	Got spare money?

Clash of Civilizations Highlights

- Type of game: Whole-History 4x TBS
- Play types: Single & Multi- Player
- Design goals: Killer AI, Reduced Micromanagement, More Realistic Feel
- Distribution type: Shareware
- Current version: Demo 4, 5 out soon
- Scheduled release date: 2002
- Platforms: All! (Anything that will run Java)
- Programming language: Java
- Need of help?: Yes, Clash can abuse your help in virtually any area
- Graphics: 8-bit
- Map: Isometric / Cylindrical
- Tiles: Square
- Unique/generic civs: Generic, but more nuanced than usual
- Victory types: Varies (player set)
- Number of max civs: Unlimited (player set)
- Simultaneous moves: Yes
- Customizable units: Yes
- Borders: Yes
- Tile improvement model: Similar to public works in CTP
- Stacks/tactical combat: Stacks / automatic tactical combat that takes into account player orders
- Goverments: Detailed Government model including internal power struggles

- Contact: Mark Everson -- markeverson@mediaone.net
- Web page: clash.apolyton.net/frame
- Discussion: Clash of Civilizations forum on Apolyton

[edit] Clash URL somehow got screwed up, probably in forum upgrades.

Last edited by Mark_Everson on 14-10-2001 at 06:50

	28-01-2001 06:14									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Okay here I go:

Type of Game - Improved TBS - Historical Simulation
Design Goals - Create a game that's not just a Civ2 clone, but is a whole new experience.
Distribution Type - Open Source
Current Version - 0 (Just starting coding)
Scheduled Release Date - When it's done!
Platforms - Windows (possible ports when finished)
Programming Language - C++
Need of Help - Coders required, desperately (OO/multiplay/low level
especially, Artists)
Graphics - DirectX, 2d sprites
Map - 2d map, view from above, but detailed (satellite image kind of map)
Tiles - Square tiles viewed from above (civ1 way!)[Put this on hold. This has caused disagreement in the camp ]
Unique Generic Civs - Every civ will be as unique as the player makes it.
Victory Types - Military, Diplomatic, Scientific, whatever you want, just ask
Number of Max Civs - This is a contentious issue. There is some discussion as whether is go MMP with ~100 civs, where games last months, or just MP with 8 players. SP will be done after MMP/MP
Customizable Units - Not like SMAC, but different levels of training.
Borders - Yes. But don't ask us to define region (sorry, inside joke, all GGS'ers would get it)
Tile Improvement Model - Improved civ2/smac model
Stacks/Tactical Combat - Using armies instead of units, strategical combat mostly
Governments - Based on SMAC, but improved
Contact - civ3-open@lists.sourceforge.net
Web-Page - www.gunsgermsandsteel.com (also, new site - http://www.ggs.f2s.com )
Discussion - http://apolyton.net/cgi-bin/ubb/for...Steel&number=38
Play Types - At the moment, looking at MMP or MP, then SP when that is done.
Micro/Macro Management - Maily maco
Customizable - As much as possible, yes.
[This message has been edited by heardie (edited January 28, 2001).]

	29-01-2001 04:02									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Very quick first try.

Note: I will stick to the things that are actually currently implemented... (Or at least specify as "planned")

[*] Type of game: Civ type
[*] Play types: Single Player, networked simultanious multiplayer, persistent server with min time epr turn multiplayer
[*] Design goals: "Make a better civ than civ" and "'Cause civilization should be free!"
[*] Distribution type: Open Source
[*] Current version: 1.11.4 (1.12.0 nearing)
[*] Scheduled release date: Now, soon and forever.
[*] Platforms:
* GNU/Linux
* Sun Solaris
* OpenBSD
* NetBSD
* FreeBSD
* BSDI 4
* Amiga
* MS Windows 95/98/NT/2000
* SunOS
* SGI Irix
* IBM OS/2
* IBM AIX
* HP HP-UX
* OpenVMS
* QNX
* Darwin
In the works: BeOS, MAC and native windows
[*] Programming language: C (some clients in C++)
[*] Need of help?: What we probably need most is a good manual...
[*] Graphics: Isometric and civ1 style
[*] Map: Only normal world style for now
[*] Tiles: Multiple tilesets. Very flexible tile set support
[*] Unique/generic civs: Not very
[*] Victory types: Conquest and space race
[*] Number of max civs: 30
[*] Simultaneous moves: Yes
[*] Borders: Planned.
[*] Tile improvement model: Unit based (ala Civ2)
[*] Stacks/tactical combat: No
[*] Goverments: Yes
[*] AI: Yes
[/list]

Contact: http://www.freeciv.org/mailinglists.html
Web page: http://www.freeciv.org

	29-01-2001 08:58									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

My turn...

Slick-6

• Type of game: Space 4x TBS
  
• Play types: Single Player, and Multi-player through PBEM, Hotseat, and TCP/IP
  
• Design goals: Strong gameplay, deep tech-tree, simple interface
  
• Distribution type: Shareware
  
• Current version: Internal Alpha
  
• Scheduled release date: 2001-2002
  
• Platforms: Win 9x/2k (portable)
  
• Programming language: C++
  
• Need of help?: Not at the moment
  
• Graphics: 3d (DirectX, OpenGL, and Glide supported)
  
• Map: 2D, view is flexible
  
• Tiles: None (Point based movement)
  
• Unique/generic civs: Unique
  
• Victory types: Varies (player set)
  
• Number of max civs: 32 (not hard coded)
  
• Simultaneous moves: Yes
  
• Customizable units: Yes
  
• Borders: Undecided (lack of sufficient methods)
  
• Tile improvement model: Unit based (ala Civ2)
  
• Stacks/tactical combat: No, Yes (computer controlled)
  
• Goverments: No
  

	29-01-2001 23:25									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ron, Jason, what do you mean by "no" in "Goverments"?
you dont have any kind of goverment model?

Ron, i also want you to explian the following

quote: Graphics: Varies (user set) - Victory types: Varies (player set)

	31-01-2001 23:46									#26
	Suffering from ads?

Looks like Heardie is our PR executive.

I think Heardie's list covered pretty much everything. Only one thing:

Our government model is by NO means based on the SMAC one. I would call it based on the Clash one, if anything, and yet deeply unique. But still, we are trying to do with it just what Clash are trying to do with their model - giving the power to the people, allowing complex internal strife and domestic politics in a way never seen in Civ games.

------------------
"If you are to hurt someone you better do it so good that you don't have to fear revenge."
- Machiavelli

GGS Website

	02-02-2001 07:54									#27
	Tired of ads?

My answer would be the same as Ron's. 4x games tend to center around combat, and the last thing a player wants is a message telling him that very important attack didn't take place because the rest of the Senate/House voted against it.

	21-02-2001 04:03									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

Is anything happening on the table? If its up, I can't find it...

If nobody else is going to do it in the near future, I can see if Dom, our webmaster, is available to give it a shot.

-Mark

	21-02-2001 11:40									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

so I guess I should start cranking out the guide table and make a comprehensive guide for these babies? gimme a day or two...

also, if you dev guys wanna pick a 'best' screenshots that would identify your game I could put that in the guide as well...

	21-02-2001 17:48									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hi only human! Glad to hear it. On the pix, are you going to put thumbnails in the table itself, linking to bigger versions? Or are you going to have a separate screenshot page? I'm asking because it will make a difference which shot we choose based on what the first thing a visitor sees of the shot is.