09-02-2000 20:06									#1
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In the end game, after you've crushed all the competing civ's and launched your spaceship, and you're just trying to maximize income/ population/ happiness, I assume that there's nothing better to do than switch your cities over to capitalization. But does it make more sense to sell off your productivity improvements (factory/ offshore platform/ manufacturing plants) first, to minimize expenses and get the gold for the sale? Or are you better off keeping them, since more production means more gold from capitalization?

And by the way, does the parenthesized "number of turns" figure for the capitalization "improvement" mean anything?

Thanks.

	09-02-2000 21:34									#2
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Neil: As for your last question, I have wondered that myself. Sometimes when I switch out of Cap to a unit/improvement, it throws in a few coins, but not always.

I believe what you do at the end to get a better score is to turn as many citizens to happy as possible. Gold, doesn't matter so crank up the lux rate and turn half of your citizens to happy and the other half to entertainers. Others here probably can provide a better explaination.

	09-02-2000 21:57									#3
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About the number of turns (and how to take advantage of it).

Capitalization counts as a wonder in the building list. So if you're about to complete a wonder you don't want, you can switch to capitalization until you discover the needed wonder tech and then switch to that wonder without losing any shields.

I think Capitalization only occurs in the modern era and therefore "takes" 600 shields to "build". So if you have built 500 shields of a wonder and switch to Cap it should read "2 turns" if the city produces 50 to 99 shields. If you have two freights ready you may want to switch to Cap, get some gold while waiting for the wonder tech and then switch back and use the freights to build the wonder in one turn.

BTW, I'm at work and don't have the game here so this could be completely wrong!

Somebody, please check this!

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited February 09, 2000).]

	10-02-2000 10:02									#4
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If you start "building" Cap from scratch, the number of turns is derived the normal way. With the city producing 50 shields it should "take" 12 turns.

Again, no hand on the bible here!

Carolus

	10-02-2000 10:59									#5
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I assume you are talking about maxing out your score... I didn't think cash was included in the calc, but I am wrong with great regularity, so I won't be surprised.

I think its almost always better to build and deliver food caravans to increase your population. In the case of caravans, production in excess of 50 shields (net) would be wasted so selling off production improvements might save you from pollution clean up hassles, and bank a little better cash flow.

Okay I wrote that about two hours ago, but went to a meeting before I sent it in...


[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited February 09, 2000).]

	10-02-2000 00:55									#6
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Cash isn't included in the formula, but trade makes goblets which make happy citizens, right? (Also, I assume that I want to keep cranking out future tech improvements, which also require a good enough cash flow).

When you talk about using food caravans to max out population, you're talking about diverting food from cities that have excess production even at max population, and sending it to cities that don't have such good terrain? I assume there'd be no advantage in sending food away from a city that has just enough food production to support its existing population.

	10-02-2000 01:13									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes trade makes goblets which makes happiness, but capitalization makes shields into coins, so there is no happiness advantage to capitalization; unless you are using it to keep solvent while running zero taxes and high luxuries.

There is a pretty big advantage to swapping food caravans since the originating city only gets a -1 food production no matter how many caravans it sends to a specific destination. If you have a nearly full food box in a large city, you could go a hundred turns before the originating city is reduced in size. If you deliver two food caravans in a turn to a city it will grow in size by one citizen. If you have the patience you can do this almost infinitely - rendering the scoring in civ almost meaningless.

Hope that clears it up!

	10-02-2000 01:13									#8
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Actually, when you are on the way to Alpha Centauri, it won't hurt to send food caravans from almost every city to the cities which are smaller, or aren't maxed out. Here is my strategy. When you send a food caravan or freight, the food supply in the giving city will decrease by one. However, that city usually has a granary full, or nearly full of grain sheaves. So, having less food to fill up that full granary would not hurt. Even if the giving city has a deficit (i.e. Hunger from not enough food to build up the food storage more) there is enough in the storage already to keep from losing any citizens in that city. So what if the granary is depleted a bit. You aren't going to have enough time to gain another citizen in the giving city, so send a caravan/freight to a city where you can gain a population point. The net effect is zero on the giving city and a plus one for the receiving city. More points. And in the last year with 100% luxuries, more total citizens, means more happy citizens, so more points.

	10-02-2000 01:19									#9
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Simul-post

	10-02-2000 01:27									#10
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... and, if you're really patient, you can set up an arrangement where you send caravans between three cities, growing one of the cities every 3 turns. This lets you grow your cities to size 127; most people here consider it a cheat. If you haven't read Ming's cheat thread yet, it's a great summary of some of the quirks in the game.
http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum28/...html?date=21:30

	10-02-2000 03:16									#11
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Ah. So once I've built everything I want to build, I only need enough productivity improvements to keep my capitalization high enough to cover all my maintenance costs with zero taxes; any factories beyond that I can just sell off (which also reduces the total maintenance costs).

About the food caravans -- did I read this correctly? If Rome sends 20 food caravans to Antium, the total food production of Rome decreases by only one, but the food production of Antium increases by 20 ??? Bizarre!

	10-02-2000 03:35									#12
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If you send 20 food caravans from A to B, every turn A will produce one less food, while B produce one more food. You net nothing from this except a reallocation of resources.

What you get is: each food caravan will fill half of the food box for the target city. If a city's food box is completely filled, the next turn its population will grow. So it takes 2 food caravans (1 if the city has granary) to get one more citizen add to your population.

	10-02-2000 03:57									#13
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correct me if i am wrong butdoesn;t your treasury add to your score..... or is this only in civ1...?

	10-02-2000 06:49									#14
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civ1

Jeopardy!

Trabek: And the category is: Sounds Animals make. And the answer is: A dog

Connery: MoooOOOooooOOOO!!!!

Trabek: NO! That is incorrect! We would have excepted Bow wow or Ruff Ruff.

Connery: Ahh ROUGH! Just the way your mother liked it!

------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

[This message has been edited by SandMonkey (edited February 09, 2000).]

	10-02-2000 06:51									#15
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According to the Civ II Manual:
Each Happy Citizen 2 points
Each Content Citizen 1 point
Each Wonder you possess 20 points
Each turn of peace(no war/combat) 3 points
Each Future Technology Advance 5 points
Each map square polluted -10 points
Barbarian level -50 to +25 points
Alpha Centauri bonus 100 to 400 points
If you conquer the world before the year 2020 Civ II calculates an alternate score based on the number of rivals you have conquered and the speed with which you moved. Up to 1,000 points for conquered cultures and nearly as many for speed. Your final score is the higher of the scores (regular or alternate)

	10-02-2000 06:53									#16
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In other words, spend your gold to buy caravans or rush build settlers to set up new villages for one added citizen. Gold doesn't count in the score.

	12-02-2000 03:06									#17
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Bump!

Back to Capitalisation...
Do you (CR) mean that you can get your cash (= 4 times no. of shields) out of an abandoned Wonder, or does it simply hold the shields in abeyance whilst paying you for the current production (at I believe 1 gold per shield) whilst you await a chance to switch to another desirable Wonder?
________________
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	12-02-2000 03:52									#18
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The vocabulary around here is getting downright educated! First DaveV uses "extant" and now Prof & Student Git throw abeyance at us - where will it end???

The a priori shields are indeed held in trust and you are compensated at 1g per shield until such time as you revert to a traditional wonder or spaceship unit.

As far as I know there is no advantage to garnering 600 coins via the capitalization program - when you switch to something else the revenue stream stops.

	12-02-2000 07:06									#19
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After these sophisticated posts, all a poor foreigner can say is

"The latter, SG, the latter."

Carolus

	12-02-2000 07:14									#20
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BTW, I didn't mean that something happens after the "12 turns" (if the city produces 50 shields). You can never build it in the normal civ sense.

Carolus

	12-02-2000 08:19									#21
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ROTFL(BO)AO - (Both our)
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p.s. thanks for the information as well as the chuckle.

	14-02-2000 21:25									#22
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jag kan inte förstå hur det kunde ske

I think that means - "I can inte-something understand how that could ske-something"

	14-02-2000 21:57									#23
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A+!

Carolus