11-02-2000 02:04									#1
	All Out AI Attack Full PM-box? Change here!

In a OCC Diety game I just finished, I was not able to get to Alpha Centauri before the year 2020, but just wanted to see if I would before the AI did.
As I kept researching and building freights, the AI Vikings kept going in and out of war with my Romans. Fortunately, I held a fortressed mountain and a fortressed hill between them and me, with Alpine, Mech Inf, and Armor, along with a couple of howitzers.
When I had finally rush built the last module needed and sent the Launch command, the AI began a multiple attack each turn in an attempt to get to my city of Rome.
Since I had finished the Space Ship, I was able to build some Mech, Armor, and Howitzers to replace those finally defeated even in the hardened hill fortresses. In addition, I did construct SDI defense and a SAM battery, along with a few stealth fighters.

Before the Launch, I had a total of 7 casualties during the entire 6000+ years. At the arrival date, I had total casualties of 32 units, and was still in place with 3 MI, 1 Armor, 3 Stealth fighters.

However, the AI Vikings has thrown units at my Fortresses, and at the City (via bombers, and stealth bombers) in the following manner.

Marines --- 117
Cavalry --- 143
Armor ----- 61
Cannon ---- 50
Artillery - 132
Bombers --- 20
Stlth Bmbr- 25
Helicopter- 14

Boy, when they get organized, they have a ton of units to use. And it seemed like there was no end in sight.

Moral. Beware when you Launch. The other uncivilized nations will send everything they have against you to beat you up. You had better be ready with strong defenders, city walls, SDI, SAMs and choke points fortified and double and triple manned.

	11-02-2000 02:15									#2
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hehehe...good thing it can't fight very well.That is a problem with having ais get somewhat modern.At deity the ai gets a tiny sheild box compared to yours and with factories...etc it can send a ton of units.But I guess you found that out.Isn't it fun to watch the slaughter as ai unit after ai unit perishes against a strategic location?
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited February 10, 2000).]

	11-02-2000 02:18									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I believe that one of the AI's cheats is that they can rushbuild very cheaply.
In one game playing at king level (ToT fantasy), I was killing the only unit defending a city, turn after turn, around the ear 200 AD. My AI opponent rushbuilt a new unit every turn to defend the city. The AI tribe had a net income of only 18, but after five turns of losing rushbuilt units, its money reserves had dropped by about 90. If I had rushbuilt the same units, they would have cost me well over 500.

- toby


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toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

	11-02-2000 02:41									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The AI had stealth?? Wow, I don't think I've ever seen that...

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Will everyone stop bloody quoting everyone else in their signiature damnit. - Graag

	11-02-2000 03:49									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I was simply saying I've never seen the AI with stealth. Nothing more, nothing less. I've also never seen the AI with an aircraft carrier.

Crow

	11-02-2000 03:53									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I feel the need to support Crow on this, I too have never seen the AI use either stealth or carrier (in recent memory, at least).

And it has nothing to do with his signature (pleased though I am )

Graag

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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	11-02-2000 04:00									#8
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Well the ai will use stealth bombers and fighters a lot if they get it. I was dumb enough to let them build up after I knew they were closing in on stealth. From now on, I hammer them before they can get robotics.

They must of had 20 stealth bombers and 50 stealth fighters. Even my onslought of 40 or 50 howitzers was being decimated. First time I had ever struggled with an howitzer onslaught. I declared war too late.

[This message has been edited by Black Bart (edited February 10, 2000).]

	11-02-2000 04:00									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

dp
[This message has been edited by Black Bart (edited February 10, 2000).]

	11-02-2000 07:10									#10
	Got spare money?

i wish the ai would go all out in an attack.... just once i would like to see 60 + units drop by for some fresh bread in the morning..... wait i did last night incompetant ai lol .... sorry My friend i couldn't resist the urge.....

Damm MOngols.... always misbehaving

	11-02-2000 07:28									#11
	Remove this text

Oh comne on! The AI can have all the techs and will not use carriers. If the AI has stealth it will (every game it can) build fighters and bombers.

So, your saying you've never lost against the AI on any level. You've never seen a stealth fighter or bomber being used by the AI. You've never re-started any games.... I find that hard to believe.

	11-02-2000 08:25									#12
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MWHC.... is that adressed to me???? i have seen howitzers from the ai..... just play on a large archipelagro (spelling) map small land and you can see howies or bombers and such..... its challenging

	11-02-2000 12:00									#13
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Hey, if I'm gonna give up on a game I usually do it before I get that far, just because mmgmt makes it no fun once you know you can't regain the lead. OCC I usually play out simply because managing one city isn't difficult.

	11-02-2000 20:51									#14
	Get a bigger avatar today!

MWHC - Dude. I never said I never lost to the AI. I never said I never restarted a game. All I said was that I've never seen the AI with stealth. They've nuked the crap out of me in 1930AD. They've wiped out my civ with elephants in 2500BC. They've obliterated me with knights in 1000AD. I'm sure that if they have the tech they will build them, but I have yet to see an AI stealth fighter.

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Will everyone stop bloody quoting everyone else in their signature damnit. - Graag

	12-02-2000 02:53									#15
	Remove this text

Myself also. I never actually 'lose' a game before stealth, but I often tire of games if they aren't fun so I don't play through untill stealth. However, this is usually when I set myself some sort of challenge on a map I have designed, I can honestly say I have never, when playing bloodlust on a normal large map at diety never seen stealth in recent memory. This probably has more to do with how little I play that type of game anymore, I play MP and OCC almost exclusively now, not to do with me being some great Civver (I know there are many people better than me in SP, MP and OCC).

Graag

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You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	14-02-2000 05:55									#16
	Tired of ads?

Actually I just wanted to reply to the statement that the AI doesn't use carriers.

That is actually untrue. They just don't use the carriers supplied by the regular rules.txt.

In my experience, if you modify a destroyer to act like a carrier, the computer will actually base fightesr on the destroyer/carrier, and hit you with airstrikes. I think I got it to do this on King level about a year or so ago, don't know if that was a freak accident or if it works with any other units, as I never tried it again.

There, MarkG. There's my contribution to non-OT stuff

	14-02-2000 19:45									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I wanted to see how the AI would use carriers so I gave them some in a game I was playing (prior to mp). As with all ai strategies it does not base it on multiple units. It looks at each unit as it is it's turn and performs within it's perameters. As a result, unless there are planes in the city where it leaves port, it will go to sea without planes. If a carrier was near an enemy city, it must have thought it was a battleship because it attacked the city and was quickly destroyed. It was also a very rare event that a plane would land on a carrier. (since their bombers don't need to land) An occasional fighter would land on one if no cities were within range, but it was not consistent.
It would be nice if someone could program the ai to look at multiple units to determine strategy. (I know all the possible combinations would be tough, but even looking at two or three units would improve the AI greatly.)

RAH

	14-02-2000 20:51									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The carrier I made in rules.txt the AI used. But only for missiles, nukes and helos. I dont think (I might be wrong) the AI was using it for planes.

	15-02-2000 00:09									#19
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What I was initially trying to do with a destroyer-carrier, BTW, was to make a good destroyer/helicopter ASW combo for a scenario I was designing (never finished it). I was playtesting the new destroyer in a game, and I found the AI basing fighters and (IIRC) helicopters on it. It didn't use it very well, but it was something new.

My experience with the AI using carriers has been generally bad. Yes, AIs WILL use carriers full of planes - but only if you stick them out in the middle of the ocean near one of your fleets (look at the WW2 Pacific scenarios for examples, particularly the first few turns). They will even launch air strikes against you, most of the time. However, this doesn't last long, in my experience, as the AI simply flies the planes off the carriers and either sacrifices them in lame attacks or puts them in the land based air force.

Again, the only exception to this I've encountered is my destroyer example - the AI was using destroyers loaded with planes close to the coast line.

Anyway, that little tidbit is for anyone who cares