21-11-2000 03:53									#1
	Political Borders Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Here are some of my thoughts and ideas on political borders in ctP2. All in all, nice feature but they are eneffective.

1. The idea of political borders did not emerge until the middle ages, before then, civilizations were defined by a group of city states. Therefore, make Political Borders something that is researched

2. Political Borders need to be far more effective. I'm sorry, if Mexico moves a column of tanks into California, it's war. Period. Crossing political borders with military units is a huge deal!! It should warn you with a pop up, center the screen there and switch your status to war.

By implenting these 2 ideas you have effective borders that don't hinder expansion early in the game.

There are my ideas, what are your thoughts?

	21-11-2000 10:25									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

I agree! Military units that pass your borders should automaticaly be a declaration of war or you should be able to attack them without the civ declaring war on you. Have not yet seen the AI remove units after making an agreement to respect borders.

	22-11-2000 09:07									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, I think that those 2 ideas should be part of the 1st patch for CTP2

I haven't bought yet the game because it hasn't been released in Europe yet so I don't know how you figure out the borders. Are they visible on the map like the borders in Alpha Centauri? Are they invisble?

	22-11-2000 18:29									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Don't worry, you're not the first to mention this and I'm already working on a way to at least give you a warning when you're crossing a border (in SLIC of course). Personally I don't think crossing it should automaticly mean war, but if you want you can set this sort of thing in the diplomacy files somewhere.

	23-11-2000 08:23									#5
	Remove this text

Crossing a border shouldn't automatically mean war. There are border skirmishes all over the Africa but they don't mean war. If a large force crosses your border, maybe then it should mean war. But I also think that some units should never cause war, only worsen relations -such as guerilla partisans. For example take example of the Korean war, when the North and South sent guerillas into each other frequently before the North actually officially invaded and they went to real war.

	01-10-2002 03:34									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

This thread raises very good ideas and points I think boarders should be changed in both the ways mentioned

quote: I'm already working on a way to at least give you a warning when you're crossing a border

Err locutus ...... you still working on this
or am I 2 years too late??

	01-10-2002 05:04									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: 1. The idea of political borders did not emerge until the middle ages, before then, civilizations were defined by a group of city states. Therefore, make Political Borders something that is researched

I dont think this is possible. We cant chnge the border size The idea for the barbarian camps without boders is impossible too.

quote: 2. Political Borders need to be far more effective. I'm sorry, if Mexico moves a column of tanks into California, it's war. Period. Crossing political borders with military units is a huge deal!! It should warn you with a pop up, center the screen there and switch your status to war.

This should be very easy with the BorderIncursion(int_t, int_t) event. Locutus must just have forgot about tying it.

	01-10-2002 17:52									#8
	Culture and boarders Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Another thing on Boarders but culture too

There is no way to graphically represent the amount of culture a city has accumulated in ctp2. BUT!

Could it be represent through the boarder of that city, the more culture it attained the thicker the boarder would become?

EDIT:
Wheres locutus, havent seen him in abit?

	01-10-2002 18:16									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Wow, major bumpage

Cant you make it impossible for the AI to move ANY military units into a nations borders which it has peace/cease fire with? Its allowed to move settlers and diplomats etc but they should just NOT move military units into someone elses territory.

	01-10-2002 19:05									#10
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quote: [Could it be represent through the boarder of that city, the more culture it attained the thicker the boarder would become?

It is impossible to change the borders size during the game. At best you could increase them by creating TI's in the correct place (thi will require lot of hard work) but you would find really difilcut (if not impossible) decrease borders with a good precision.
It is a constant in the game found in the const.txt.

quote: Cant you make it impossible for the AI to move ANY military units into a nations borders which it has peace/cease fire with? Its allowed to move settlers and diplomats etc but they should just NOT move military units into someone elses territory.

Yes this is possible. Increasing the importance of borders with stuff like that is very much possible. Just some planning will need to be required

	01-10-2002 19:17									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

well. the settler is also a problem
i still consider building towns inside my borders just in those spaces left free for my towns to grow a wonderfull gift, allowing for many cheap new slaves and stolen pw.... aarghh stop, actually i meant i consider that an act of aggression

	01-10-2002 19:29									#12
	Got spare money?

As long as it doesnt settle inside my borders (which it isnt programmed to do in the unmodded game) then i dont mind where it settles if we're at peace, even if its surrounded by my cities.

The thing is though, that ive seen the AI declare war by breaking the no-tresspass rule. So would the AI declare war before it entered your borders again? Because if it was impossible for the AI to move inside in "peacetime" then it would have to declare war beforehand, hence, no surprise attacks from the AI. Thats, of course a bad thing. But when ive made a peace treaty with someone, i like to know that theyre not hatching a plan somewhere inside my borders.

I know that it has to backstab the human sometimes, but it should move out at least when its a peace treaty.

	01-10-2002 19:54									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora I know that it has to backstab the human sometimes, but it should move out at least when its a peace treaty.

Thats the planning i was referring to:

quote: Originally posted by Pedrunn Just some planning will need to be required

	01-10-2002 23:09									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora ...............edit:..... But when ive made a peace treaty with someone, i like to know that theyre not hatching a plan somewhere inside my borders. I know that it has to backstab the human sometimes, but it should move out at least when its a peace treaty.

Just keep looking over that shoulder

It is annoying when for no reason(that seems logical) the AI does get into a war with you this way, it doesn't seem to matter which type of AI leader you have a peace with either. Ghandi is just as likely to break his treaty as Ghenghis! Trust no-one

	02-10-2002 01:09									#15
	Suffering from ads?

Hex explained that the AI in Cradle was so untrusworthy because in Ancient time diplomacy, ...well there wasnt much, it was just war or not war. But im not sure if thats because he couldnt make it have peace and use the Frenzy script at the same time.

Its realistic to always watch your back in the Ancient era, but when i reach the Renaissance i want friends (to leech techs from)

	05-10-2002 18:12									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Hex explained that the AI in Cradle was so untrusworthy because in Ancient time diplomacy, ...well there wasnt much, it was just war or not war. But im not sure if thats because he couldnt make it have peace and use the Frenzy script at the same time.

The frenzy AI could be one of the reason but not close to be the mainly one.
According to the numbers in the CRA_goal.txt specially for AlliedValueBonus and EnemyValueBonus values I am sure Hex did wanted to make a backstaber and a untrusworthy AI.
If he did had a not noble reason to the "just war or not war" thought it is because the diplomacy isnt that easy to handle. I am guessig that because oppose to the really revolutionary changes in strategies he was very conservative in diplomacy .
Still he did had a lot work in the strategy/goals texts to improve this "just war or not war" AI.