12-12-1999 09:02									#1
	The whole caravan thing Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Alright. I try to build caravans for trade and food, but I always get sidetracked by something I consider more immediate. Usually I just build 3 for my science city, and some others for wonders. So how do you guys seem to build so many? How many would you say you build in an average game?
Do you find yourself building a lot more in double production games than regular production (more than just x2)?
What do you consider more and/or less important than a caravan?
In what situations do you use food caravans?
Any newer strategies for caravans (in last 5 months) in general?

	12-12-1999 10:46									#2
	Tired of ads?

How many caravans? 40-50 trade routes, about 20 food, plus all wonders via caravans. Thats probably 130-150 total.

What do I consider more important than a caravan? First priority is expanding to the number of cities allowed by government, up to eight or ten max for me. Second priority is adequate defense: a phalanx in each city, plus two mobile units and one or two dips to cover the entire set of eight or ten cities. After that, I build pretty much nothing but caravans. Improvements can be purchased; wonders are built from caravans; spaceship built using wonders as placeholders plus spending the money you accumulated.

I only use food caravans to grow my Super Science City.

New strategies? Working on using caravans to manipulate the commodities individual cities supply and demand, but not quite there yet.

All of these comments apply to games against the AI. My impression is that most MP games dont get continued long enough to build too many caravans.

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Old posters never die, they just f.a.d.e..a..w..a..y . . .

	12-12-1999 11:22									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks for the quick response. I should amend what I said. I do build many other caravans, but usually not until late in the game; well into the industrial-modern era and after factories. When do you really start pumping them out?

I should also mention that I'm a bit more expansionist than you. I try to have a lot more cities than that (I also usually play large map).
[This message has been edited by Theben (edited December 12, 1999).]

	13-12-1999 10:56									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I also play on a large map and often have 10 to 20 cities. I try to get trade fairly early in the game as it makes wonder building easier. My usual building pattern is: 1) a military unit, 2) diplo/spy, 3) caravan/freight, 4) City improvement.

I modify this as needed on a city by city basis depending on what the urgency is for some particular item in that city.

Ken

	13-12-1999 14:50									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I use food caravans and a granary to grow certain cities quickly under Communism or Monarchy.You can add a new citizen every turn.One way to counter "we love" of Republics and Democracies.

	13-12-1999 15:25									#6
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Adam,
"no of cities allowed by the government???"
We have noticed quantum leaps in unhappiness while we have been expanding and hypothesised that there was a 'rule' there somewhere. Do you have the deep intelligence? Please share...

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor


[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited December 13, 1999).]

	13-12-1999 16:31									#7
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Just out of interest, SG, exactly how many of you are there lurking behind that handle?

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	13-12-1999 17:13									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Just the two, me SG[1] mad professor (university lecturer) and my mate SG(2) a printer - we get together to play Civ most Friday and Sunday evenings.
For reference v2.42 at the moment SG(2) likes the standard game and lots of Democracy, while I favour some graphic enhancements and Fundy for ever!
Hope this helps
(You're not Carthaginian are you? )

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____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor


[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited December 13, 1999).]

	13-12-1999 17:57									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Scouse Git (1),

There is a "magic number" for each type of government. After you exceed 1x that number of cities, you will start having cities whose first citizen is unhappy. After you exceed 2x that number of cities, you will start having cities whose first citizen is very unhappy (which cities, and how many, appears to be semi-random). The magic numbers at Deity level are:

Despotism/Anarchy: 4
Monarchy: 6
Communism/Fundamentalism: infinity
Republic: 8?
Democracy: 10?

I'm not sure of the last two, since I rarely play them.

	13-12-1999 20:21									#10
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Interesting plan, Smash. Might make Pyramids more important than I give it.

	13-12-1999 21:40									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Theben...I build hundreds of caravans.
ICS = Infinite Caravan Sleaze.

All of my comments relate to playing against the AI. I'm reasonably sure it's single production. A grassland square yields either 0 or 1 shield so you be the judge.

I usually build 20 to 30 cities on my own. Cities and settlers that come from tipping huts add a few more. I will build cities on islands off the coast of AI continents. Cities that come from bribes and warfare add some more. Since I am not warlike until late in the game and I play on maps with 10,000 squares, by the end of the game I will have 100 or so cites.

As soon as I can afford to do so I buy city improvements or at least most of the shields. For example, suppose I want to build a bank and the city produces 20 shields. I will play one turn as normal, switch to a colluseum and buy it for 160 gold, then switch back to the bank for one more turn.

Once I get radio I build airports as fast as possible and then fly freight units half way around the world. Once I can afford to do so I purchase enough shields so that each freight unit requires but one turn to build.

Back to your questions. Suppose the city has a defender, a settler for improvement, and, if it is on a hostile continent, a diplomat. Then I will build caravans unless I need a happiness improvement, an aquaduct, a sewer, or an airport. If I think my city would go into We Love The President Day with a market place, bank, or stock exchange, then I will build them. Libraries and universities are rather low priorities for me. I count on the trade bonus from caravans for most of my science. The obvious exception is the science city.

At the beginning of the game I build food caravans for Wonder building. That is how I distinguish caravans I want to use for Wonders from caravans I want to use for trade. This is the only way I can keep things straight.

The only thing I am doing differently from, say, five months ago is building far more caravans.

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If you can not think of a good reason to build something other than a caravan, build a caravan!

	13-12-1999 23:49									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Just got done playing a caravan-centric game with 12 cities on a normal map - it worked perfectly. I built 11 key wonders all with caravans (usually in 1-3 turns). I also built caravans out my science city on a periodic basis. Then, I stacked about 120 caravans outside of 6 cities to build all of the required SS Structurals (15) and SS Components (6) in 5 turns (I used cash for the SS Modules).

This was my first time playing this way and now I can really see the benefits of caravans. It is the most undervalued unit in the game.

	14-12-1999 00:28									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Your strategy to use caravans to help build spaceship parts, which is a great idea, made me think of asking this:

Has anyone tried playing a game without building any caravans? Has anyone won such a game? I guess you could call it NCC (No Caravan Challenge). How difficult would it be to win a game with this strategy? At what difficulty level(s) could it be done?

	14-12-1999 00:49									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That's very easy. My last game was the FIRST game (after playing and winning continously for a year) that I built caravans to a great extent. Truthfully, I didn't know about the value of caravans until reading this forum. But as I can attest, one can easily win at bloodlust (and AC I assume) without caravans.

	14-12-1999 01:52									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

Like Steve, I also learnt about the value of caravans when I first came here and I can tell you that I have won the space race without caravans. It may take a bit longer, but it is not much of a challenge for a decent civ2 player.

	14-12-1999 02:50									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

To DaveV...

Yes, I agree with the numbers you mentioned. It goes 6...12..20 or something. As I like to have more cities, I tried to counter unhappines with Hanging Gardens. Howewer after I have built them, something wierd happens...they start to riot, and when I take units out of them they calm down???
Anyone knows where I cold find more info about happiness calculation?

	14-12-1999 04:49									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

VetLegion - I ran into the same thing this weekend. Anybody have a good answer?


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If you can not think of a really good reason why you should build something other than a caravan, build a caravan. - jpk

	14-12-1999 05:15									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

What's that? Taking units out of a city makes it happier? Or am I misunderstanding? I've never come across it.

SG - I've been accused of many things, but never of being a Cart.

Tell me, do you ever fight over control of the handle?

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591


[This message has been edited by finbar (edited December 13, 1999).]

	14-12-1999 05:23									#19
	Remove this text

It could be that the city with the most disorder was moving somewhere else. I wasn't thinking to check that at the time, but it should be possible to make the most unhappy city be the one you want it to be my tricking the program.... hmmmm.

	14-12-1999 05:36									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Mmm. Just hunted through the Strategy Guide. The equation for calculating unhappiness against size of empire makes fascinating reading. If you're a Nobel winner for Maths.

Max Cities = Riot Factor - ((difficulty levelx2) x ((government divided by 2) + 2))/2)

Where:

the default value of Riot Factor = 14

difficulty level = a range from 0 (Chieftan) through to 5 (Deity)

government = 0 (Anarchy), 1 (Despotism), 2 (Monarchy), 3 (Communism), 4 (Fundy), 5 (Republic), 6 (Democ)

I have a headache.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	14-12-1999 05:40									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Just like I thought!

LL

	14-12-1999 05:42									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I was right all along. A little knowledge can be very very very dangerous to one's mental health.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
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	14-12-1999 06:09									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

DAVE V

Thanks for the figures. Is there a similar set of magic numbers which suddenly stop cities from celebrating for no apparent reason? (Usually in fundy or monarchy)
My question applies to when the overall number of cities remains the same.

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Scouse Git (2)
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited December 13, 1999).]

	14-12-1999 17:50									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Sten Sture and VetLegion,

The key to keeping lots of cities happy with HG lies in exploiting a bug discovered by Matthew. Two cups (or HG) will convert an unhappy citizen to content, but they will convert a very unhappy citizen to happpy! So when you strip troops and lessen martial law, HG produces a happy instead of a content citizen.

Someone (Sieve Too, I think) had a very nice writeup about the happiness screen in another thread. I'm too lazy to look up the thread, but maybe someone more ambitious could track it down...

	14-12-1999 18:43									#25
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finbar,

Sorry, but the formula you cite is bogus. I ran the numbers for Deity, and got:

Anarchy/Despotism: 4
Monarchy: -1
Republic: -6
Democracy: -11

I noticed that the formula has four left parentheses and five right parentheses. But there's something more fundamental: the government must be added to the number of allowable cities, not subtracted.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited December 14, 1999).]

	14-12-1999 23:46									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It can't be true that removing units from a city can ease riot. Maybe another city has just been built? or the luxury rate has been changed? or the configuration of citizens has changed (working on ocean instead of mountain)?

	15-12-1999 05:45									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

DaveV:

IT'S NOT A BUG !!!!

at least I hightly doubt that it is. It makes huge civs possible.

	15-12-1999 06:55									#28
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Dave V - I copied it out of the Official Strat Guide. Of course, being one of the world's worst touch typists, I might've (and probably did) transpose something.

I'll check.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	15-12-1999 07:02									#29
	Got spare money?

Dave V - Just checked. And double checked. That's the equation that appears on p88 of David Ellis' Official Strategy Guide.

Guess he got it wrong. Pity. Well, more than a pity, it's bad. If I were more of a mathematician, I'd have a go at doing the calculation myself.

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finbar
Mono Rules!
#33984591

	15-12-1999 17:40									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

finbar,

Here's my guess:

Max cities = Riot Factor - difficulty factor*2 + (INT(government/2))*2

For non-programmers, the INT(government/2) part means you divide by two and discard the remainder.

Strangely enough, this produces the same numbers I gave above for Deity .