06-12-2000 06:20									#1
	Sprites and World Maps Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am currently working on a world map that is 250 x 500 and that will contain 32 civs. To create a map that is as realistic as possible, I have taken a Mercator's map that I scanned, re-sized to proper proportions, re-sized to print on a large diamond grid, and now I am about 1/2 way done the final touches of adding actual terrain types.

I might say that it is sad that I put so much time into this project (one..square...at...a...time...ARG!), but I think you will all thank me when you see the final project. It really looks just like a professional map you might buy; in perfect proportions and next-to exact placements of the world's major rivers and lakes

But my next topic is one of greater importance. I am creating a scenario that revolves around the Mediterranian sea, called the 'Dawn of Civilizations', and will include all the earliest civs from the area; I'm looking at around 21.

BUT I HAVE A PROBLEM!

By spending days on my world map, I never got a chance to learn how to use the sprite list, and thus change and modify unit types (use of triremes, phalanx, legions, etc...). I also need to find a way to change the names of some of my civs.

IF ANYBODY IS WILLING TO SHARE THEIR INFINATE KNOWLEDGE OF SPRITE USE AND MODS WITH ME, I WOULD BE GLAD TO PUT YOU ON MY DESIGN TEAM! This next scenario is gonna be GREAT, but I need a hand. I'm getting too old for this!

My world map should be up by the end of the week; I want to try it out before I let you guys loose only to find it crashes your system at some odd point in the game.

Until then, Good GAming!
Alex
alexmatusiak@aol.com

	06-12-2000 06:29									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well it's nice to see another map maker out there.. but I do wish to caution you... I finished a map a few weeks ago of the globe, which was 210x150 (it got rave reviews). But!!! When you try to play the map with 14 civs on a PIII 800 the turns become 5 minutes long at around 1800AE and 10minutes at the turn of the century. I don't mean to discourage anything that you are planning, but unless you have a super computer... maybe the one used to predict weather patterns, 32 civs and 250x500 is going to be really slow around 200AE if not sooner. I know from personal experience also since for CTP I created or at least started to create a 500x1000 32 civ map... then tested it early on... Thank God... and found that 10 turns in the game turns were taking 10 minutes... this is just advice, and I suggest you test it early to guarantee that it will work at some acceptable speed... otherwise you may wish to think a little smaller in scale... or less civs.. or both... 32 civs alone will slow the game considerably...

If you haven't seen what's available yet, check out my site http:\\pcouw.homestead.com\games.html it has the 2 world maps and a North American scenario and a day by day preview of my newest map...

Mapmaking cohort
Omni

	06-12-2000 06:40									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Omni...how much RAM do you have??? I've never been slowed down THAT much, and I've played a 32 civ game right up until 2300.AD. The map was 200x100, so it wasn't a monster or anything. What I found is that about 10 civs will get abosorbed before 0.AD, and a few more after that, so by the time I got to around 1600, there were 18 civs left, and the game ended with 16...1/2 the starting numbers.

I understand that when I hit 'end turn', especially later in the game, the span lasted anywhere from 1 to 2 minutes at most, but simply dropping off excess junk like 'animated trade routes' and 'show enemy moves' takes off alot of heat; more than I would ever have imagined!

I guess I'm just searching for realism, thats all. I find that the more civs you can take, the more interesting the game becomes.

QUESTION; how can you take lots of civs in a smaller game? Everytime I want to use alot of civs on a huge map, the game just shuts off on me. Does it have to do with available starting locations? Or with starting location distances??? If you know, I shure would like to

Alex

	06-12-2000 08:39									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have to agree. I haven't had any problems (so far) with large maps and civs. I've got an 850/128MB & 650/196MB that I play on mostly and neither one has had any slow down yet. Just though I'd Let you know. Also I had just started on a world map of the exact size you mention (250x500). I am still in the infant stages, but I believe I will hold off. Hopefully, your map will be as good as it sounds, then I can just nix that project and get back to the other ones I was working on. Thanks for the hard work, both of you, it is appreciated. Actually, that should go out to everyone.

------------------
Yours in gaming,
~Elucidus

	06-12-2000 08:43									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

SO Elucidus...

there's been no slow down of my original map on your computer, it's just an isolated incident... probably as said before too much eyecandy happening... if so then, I'm going to go for the gusto and see if I can get back to my original plan of 500x1000 as was the case in CTP... hnmmmm.... too big... or just right... that's like 500,000 tiles up from my 60,000 I'm on now... dam... Harlan's help might be needed in that one Just gotta find a map.... hmmm...

Omni

	06-12-2000 09:26									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I would like to suggest an alternate approach to what you are doing.

First, create a smaller map scenario, something in the range of 70x140x16civ to 140x280x24civ. Once you have this working, after plenty of playtesting by OTHER people, continue with your larger project.

The map sizes and number of Civs you are talking about will only be usable by possibly the top 1% of the people. The smaller maps will be usable by about 60% of the people.

Also, you really don't want to spend 150-200 hours working on a map only to find out it is not only unplayable but also unusable. This means you will have to start over from SCRATCH to produce a correct one.

Of course, it is your map and your time so you are free to do as you wish. However, I can tell you from personal experience, it is very frustrating and disappointing to have high hopes for something like this and have it all blow up in your face.

Good luck

	06-12-2000 09:35									#8
	Tired of ads?

Omni,
I am on my second game with your map (4th with a large map 90 x 180+). The first one ended abruptly when too much editing and testing caused some problems so I had to delete some of my saves and do a clean install. I haven't got as far on the other game yet so like I said "so far". Also 10 Civs were out of it already in the first game, this time only two are so far. We'll see.

------------------
Yours in gaming,
~Elucidus

	06-12-2000 09:58									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

MarkG pointed out a little while ago some settings on the AI and the time it takes for a turn.

I believe these are in the Const.txt file. Search for the string AI or AI_ and I think you'll find them.

I've been cranking these up higher in order to trade a smarter AI for slower turn resolution. Generally, most AI's are going to search through multiple options, then pick the one that scores the highest on its criteria. The longer you give it to do this, the better options it should find, and thus the smarter it should play.

But if people are having trouble with slower turns with lots of civs, they may want to look at these settings the other way. Trade a somewhat stupider AI for one that can play its turns quicker.

Don't know if that will help, but it should at least be something worth fiddling with.

marc