09-12-2000 21:23									#1
	Activision Expansion Pack--would YOU pay for one? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Would you pay for an expansion pack put out by Activision that included:

1) Unit graphics from CTP1 that were not included in CTP2
2) New Unit graphics from a "25 [or whatever] Most Wanted Units" poll put out on Activision's (and/or Apolytons) web site
3) New Trade Goods (enough to make for the 4 per terrain type?), perhaps also from a poll.
4) New Improvement Buildings graphics
5) New Wonders graphics
6) New Tile Improvements graphics
7) Other miscellaneous graphics
8) An in-game editor that would:

a) Allow for modifying all unit statistics, tile and building improvement statistics, and wonder effects
b) Enable modifying which advances enable what units, improvements, etc.
c) Add advances, modify tech tree
d) Add whetever new graphics Activision made availbable with the pack
e) Add approximately 5 scenarios that show the user the versatility of the new graphics and mods
f) Allow for modifying terrain values, how much river spaces there are on the map, how often a unit obtains veteran status, and other miscellaneous items

All graphics would be in addition to the existing ones, of course. Any play balance issues thus affected would be left solely up to the user. S/he would be allowed to make the game as imbalanced as s/he wished.

This expansion pack would be geared toward the casual (or not so casual) mod maker. It would not be everything for everone, especially those hackers and crackers out there who want to basically change the fundemental game mechanics of CTP2.

The editor would make file extensions, placement of files and other technical items transparent to the editor user. The editor would NOT support third party graphics, slic modifications, and other tamperings with miscellaneous text files. This would help Activision stay sane and not have to provide technical support for such tamperings.

SSI's "Reach for the Stars" editor is an excellent example of what I'm talking about : an easy to use interface and incredible versility within the constraints of existing game mechanics. You can create entire new species and tech trees (or modify existing ones) with simple buttons. Scenario creation is wonderful. Replayability is, therefore, excellent.

Thus, Activision could incredibly increase the replayability of CTP2 and allow for an amazing array of officially (or maybe not) supported, user-made scenarios. They could even have contests for such.

In one fell swoop, Activision could increase profits, increase enthusiasm and notoriety for the game, and immensely increase CTP2s replayability.

I would gladly pay $40 to $50 for such an expansion pack!

How about you?

(Mark G, if this post generates interest, could you make it known to Activision?)

[This message has been edited by Colonel Kraken (edited December 09, 2000).]

	09-12-2000 21:48									#2
	Tired of ads?

It is VERY rare that I purchase an Expansion Pack for a game.

I view these in the same category as the "Strategy Guides" that come out nowadays. Thus I view them as attempts by greedy game companies to rip me off for even more money than the high price that the game cost me originally.

Why should I pay more money for a game company to do things right that they should have done in the original game in the first place?

This is as close as I can come to writing up my response to the idea of paying for an "Expansion Pack" in a forum where I need to keep my language acceptable.

	10-12-2000 10:10									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's unfortunate that some individuals who may have not worked in sales, management, or some other such position cannot understand that companies do not exist MERELY to serve us and our needs/wants but to also make money.

Most would say (and you probably do to) the changes that CTP2 made were incremental at best and should have been released for free as a patch. Yet, those are the same individuals who went ahead and purchased the game anyway. Why? Because it DID improve things and it's fun. For the same reason, I would pay for an "Expansion Pack", regardless of whether or not some people would believe it included things that should have been in the original game.

In addition, I don't think some people realize how much time and effort it takes to make these modern computer games. Even such things as add ons and/or using existing game engines takes an immense amount of effort. Time = money. It shouldn't just be given away, and nobody should expect Activision to do so either.

	10-12-2000 01:20									#4
	Support Apolyton

In all honesty, I have more faith in what the mod makers are doing to enhance the game than I have in anything that activision puts out. And thats not based on economics but on the fact that activision seems to put forth some sloppy patches in the past.

	10-12-2000 01:30									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Sadly I have to agree with you. I say sadly because I would love to get somethng for nothing, but it just doesn't happen like that. I mean sure a contest, but an Product add-on? Get real. I wish games didn't cost quite as much. Those games that cost $55-$60 are just too much. $35-$40 is what I deem a fair price for a full game. $20-$25 for an add-on also seems fair to me.
I always hear about people talking about how this game is too expensive or that one cost too much. Get real people, these people make their living by creating these games and it is not all cake. They are not getting rich over this, believe me. There is more to it than the publisher of the game (Activision). It's not like all they have to pay for is the CDs, there is a lot involved. Give 'em a break. And if you think you can do better and do it for free... Then go ahead, show everyone how good you are.
BTW, sorry about the poor attitude I have on the subject, I am just sick of dealing with whiny, cheap-skates, who have nothing better to do than complain. Oh and to answer your question... YES, I would buy it.

------------------
Yours in gaming,
~Elucidus

	10-12-2000 01:43									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I'd have to agree with the thought that nothing is free, and hey if you just look how long it's taking us to do mods, maps and scenarios... and we're novices at this... just think what the creators could do if you paid them just a little more... not that I want to pay them anymore, but it does make changes occur much more quickly..

Omni

	11-12-2000 13:56									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Before you dismiss me as a troll, read what I have to say.

First of all, what are you talking about? You've just paid Activision USD39 for what is really an expansion pack. CtP2 should have been called CtP1.5 and sold at USD19 as an expansion pack.

When you consider that they had a year and a half to improve on a game, and they've only released something that should have been CtP1 in the first place, are you serious about giving them more of your hard-earned money? So that they can put out another unpolished product?

Please take a look around at the quality of the mods that came out for CtP1. Look at the amount of time, effort and ingenuity that went into them - work that went extremely far toward giving you the quality of play you expected from CtP1.

Fact is, CtP1 + mods > CtP2.

If you were willing to shell out money, I think it would be better if you spent that money by buying Amazon gift certificates for the mod-makers instead. I'm pretty sure WesW would appreciate this.

If you're serious, get together a group of like-minded people. Create a fund, and then hold those funds in escrow. Upon delivery of certain milestones / projects, release the money to the mod-makers - the ones who give you the graphics, the gameplay and everything you asked for. And you'd get a better time frame for delivery too.

I'd ask you to seriously consider that idea.

Oh, just one small problem. If you ever use the Scenario editor, then you've agreed to the shrinkwrap that says you can't make money off it. Meaning you can't charge for custom maps and scenarios.

Fortunately however, that doesn't preclude anyone from modifiying the .txt files directly, which is what most hardcore modders do. So ... if we came out with your vision of a perfect CtP2 - balanced, beautiful and tasteful - would you pay for it?

Not that I think the modders really want to get paid for it - we probably do it out of love of perfection and for the game than anything else.

Point here though - there are better ways to get what you want than to throw (more) money at Activision. Consider that.

	11-12-2000 17:09									#10
	Got spare money?

BTW, I work for a software company, so I'm not entirely ignorant of the economics of the business.

However, I feel the way that many game companies do business is inherently unethical.

They hurry out a version one of the game, and charge about $50 for it. People buy this thinking they are getting a complete game for this price.

The first surprise they get is that there is no good documentation of the game. To find out how to play the game, they have to shell out another $20 for a "strategy guide".

The second surprise is this was usually released to meet some deadline of the marketing dept, so typically the game is so buggy as to be unplayable until a patch comes out.

Then they discover that the game company didn't release the full game in the first box, so now they get to pay another $30 for an "expansion pack". Some game companies are particularly unethical because they only release needed bug fixes for the game in the expansion pack.

Then after awhile, the "sequel" to the game come out. Frequently the original game was so buggy that the one patch the game company was willing to do wouldn't fix the game, and even the patch masquerading as a "expansion pack" didn't fix the game, so if you really want the game that you thought you were buying back when you picked the first box off the shelve, now you have to buy the "sequel" for another $50.

Of course, now there's the manual for the sequel, aka the strategy guide for another $20, and the inevitable strategy pack for another $30.

Now, the smart thing to do is to completely ignore the version one of a game that comes out and wait for "the sequel". And even then, don't buy it when it comes out but wait for the inevitable special offer (or "gold edition") that will combine the somewhat fixed second version of the game with the manual and the expansion pack.... all for about $40.

Funny how at the end of the day they can sell that for same price. Is it just greed up till then, or have they suckered enough people for about $200 for the entire sequence that they can now sell it for what seems to be a fair price?

End result is I try to keep some discipline myself and wait for games to get into the discount bin or wait for the magical gold edition of the sequel when it really makes sense to buy the thing.

	11-12-2000 20:06									#11
	Put an end to popups!

One caveat: although some of this may sound as if I'm perturbed, I am not. Please take all of this as if I'm having a congenial discussion with you. Now . . .



Most of you say the things I spoke of adding should already have been included in the game. Fair enough. Most of you say that what CTP2 is, should have been CTP1.5. Fair enough. Most of you say that most of the things I'm asking for is (or will be) available from very able mod makers. Fair enough.

The simple fact of the matter is, though, those things were NOT included in CTP2 --regardless of whether or not we believe they SHOULD have been included. Come on people, we're talking about a GAME made for your free (or not so free) time --for your entertainment. I see people getting very worked up about something that essentially is frivolous. If I have to shell out a few extra bucks to get the ENTAINMENT I want, then so be it.

Now hear me mod makers: You are all brilliant and hard working, and I appreciate every bit of wonderful, usually professional looking, modifications you have made (and are going to make) to the game. But there are two things that you may have not considered. One, many of us may not want to (or have the ability to) make the types of modifications to the game we would like (that you take for granted). And, two, even if we merely use YOUR modifications so we don't have to do the work, it still doesn't address the issue that perhaps the modifications YOU think are great, WE don't like. (No offense)

Therefore, I merely have suggested that it would be nice to have some professional tools to make a mod pack that I want, not merely rely on someone else's vision of a mod. PLEASE keep in mind that I think all of your (WesW, Harlan, Celestial Dawn, etc.) work is masterful (and I have used some of it by the way). I just want to make my own.

My wife and I BOTH (I know some of you married fellows will be jealous that I have a spouse who loves Civ games ) LOVE the game (despite the many flaws) and usually share the same vision for what the game SHOULD be. Therefore, if I made a mod for us, it would be adequate, and we would personally get more enjoyment out of the game.

Thanks for all of your thoughts. I hope there will be more. This is all very interesting.

And, YES, Acivision, I would still purchase an expansion pack (if it included at least most of the things I suggested).

Thank you.
[This message has been edited by Colonel Kraken (edited December 11, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Colonel Kraken (edited December 11, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Colonel Kraken (edited December 11, 2000).]

	12-12-2000 10:19									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The incompetance shows through and through. . .

I am now understanding it more and more.

	12-12-2000 10:25									#19
	Put an end to popups!

Fix the game first.

Later you can talk about expansions and sequels and gold editions all you like.

	11-12-2000 23:02									#20
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

What would you like to fix that wouldn't merely be an add-on to the existing product/game mechanics?

Some people call adding a Legion unit a fix, but it is merely something that could be added with the type of product I mentioned in my original post.

What do you think?