13-12-2000 04:04									#1
	List of Wonders and ikdeas Suffering from ads?

various people are working on revamped tech lists and wonders. it would seem to make sense to have ideas and criticisms collected in one place.

i know the med mod is getting alot responses as well as others... if we are to avoid getting chained to the changes that are made initially to avoid going back and "re-compiling" the adjustments later things like wonders (as well, as tech tree changes, etc..) should maybe be sort of self contained. ie as "modular" as possible

SO; does any one have suggestions for a list of missing wonders? ctp1 has a set available (colossus, etc..) to port in, but i am sure others have more ideas.

my 2 cents, LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA! for gosh sake. and maybe the whole 7 wonders of the ancient world. (ie hanging gardens of babylon, etc....)

being able to destroy wonders should be possible as this has already happened in places. (ie LIBRARY OF ALEXANDRIA) wonder specific units are here as well as feats of wonder (ie certain conditions that are met to produce certain results)


[This message has been edited by phenyl (edited December 12, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by phenyl (edited December 12, 2000).]

	13-12-2000 06:00									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

The biggest problem with the civilization wonders is that 80% of them are Western, mostly geared around England and the United States.

The non anglo-saxon type wonders are nearly all big stone buildings, and never great cultural achievements like the Emancipation Procalmation, etc. So with that in mind, here are some wonders that might balance things out.

The Grand Canal (China)
Easily the worlds longest canal, it links the Yangtse and Yellow rivers. This had the effect of unifying north and south China, and boosted trade considerably. In the game it could function as a boost to commerce through the entire empire.

Asoka's Pillars (India)
This is only a suggested name. The Mauryan ruler Asoka erected huge stone pillars all over his empire, on which were engraved buddhist philosophy of nonviolence, kindness to animals, etc. In the game, it could give a +2 to happiness, or raise the empires regard. Asoka also sent Buddhist missionaries all over the world, so maybe it could give a theocracy 10 free clerics or make conversion temporarily automatic.

Petronas Towers (Malaysia)
Currently the tallest buildings on earth. They could function as a modern East India Company, or make the civilization immune from embargoes (if that's possible).

The Taika Reform (Japan)
One of the earliest and most effective land reforms and centralizations of political power. After the Taika Japan became essentially a nation-state, a full 1000 years before the idea ever caught on in Europe. In the game, it could give every city a courthouse, temporarily eliminate the possibility of revolutions, or something else that affects empire unity.

Angkor Wat (Cambodia)
Angkor Wat is still the worlds largest religious structure. I don't know what it would do, but it deserves to be included.

Economic Miracle (Anyplace)
The civilization that completes the economic miracle miraculously shifts from a pre-modern to a modern economy in a very short period of time. Building this wonder instantly gives the civilization all the advances of the second or third most advanced civilization in the game (one time only). Obviously, this only helps civs that are hopelessly behind.

	15-12-2000 01:06									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There should be more variety for the functions of wonders. Most wonders just increase commerce, science, or happiness. It would be nice to see more wonders that do different things.

	15-12-2000 02:00									#4
	Remove this text

The Petronas towers are not the tallest buildings on earth.

Note that the "strutural or architectural top" is a purely subjective decision. Both of the other buildings were originally designed to have antennae on top - why the "spires" on the Petronas towers are the only ones to count is pretty arbitrary...

from: http://www.designcommunity.com/discussion/33.html:

In July of 1997, the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat (CTBUH), the world's recognized arbiter of building height, addressed the controversy by establishing fourcategories for height:

1. Height to structural or architectural top: Petronas Towers - 1483 ft / 452 m

2. Height to highest occupied floor: Sears Tower - 1431 ft / 436 m

3. Height to top of roof: Sears Tower - 1450 ft / 442 m

4. Height to tip of spire or antenna: World Trade Center (NY) - 1728 ft / 527 m

Sears Tower will apparently capture category #4 in early 2000. Sears Tower's heightwith antennas is presently 1707 feet. The top section of the building's western antenna has been removed and will be replaced with a longer section, enough to push Sears past the World Trade Center by at least one foot.


[This message has been edited by wheathin (edited December 14, 2000).]

	15-12-2000 02:04									#5
	Got spare money?

Wonder lists have already been extensively bandied about in relation to CTP1. Can anyone dig up any of those lists and link to them? That would save a lot of repetition. I personally recall discussing with Wes for his mod the idea of getting more non-western wonders in there. Grand Canal, Asoka's Pillars and Angkor Wat were already strongly urged by me.

Petronas Towers I think is very weak. Actually not the tallest building in the world. The Guiness Book of World Records has come up with four different tallest building categories (tallest antenna, tallest inhabited floor, etc) and the Petronas Tower only wins in one, the Sears Tower wins in the other three.

The Taika Reform sounds promising. I don't know much about this.

Economic Miracle is waaayyy too general. But howabout calling it the Meiji Restoration instead? In only a few decades Japan went from a medieval, feudal society to an industrial one, probably the most amazing economic growth in world history. Since this was a playing catchup with the west, hopefully this wonder could be done in such a way that it only benefits players that are way behind. Catch up wonders are vitally needed to allow players to bounce back. The boost is you get as many free Factories as the number one player has. So if you're number one or close, its useless. But if you're just entering the Industrial Era and the number one player already has factories in all of its cities, its huge. Of course, its probably a pipe dream that one could get that to work just as I describe, but its a good idea anyways .

I also like Elite Persian's suggestion to have the wonders more interesting. Certainly SLIC allows a lot of potential in this. The functions of the new wonders in CTP2 are really boring.

	15-12-2000 02:12									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

How would the economic miracle work? If it's too easy to build, then the more advanced powers could just build it to deny the smaller civs from getting it.

	15-12-2000 02:15									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Harlan, sorry but you were posting while I edited the quote in.

As to catch-up wonders, wouldn't the lead player just build them anyway to keep them away from the other civs? There is no reason to build Great Library - style wonders now, but most players always build them to deny them to the AI.

What's needed are catch-up wonders that *cannot* be built by whoever is in first place, or that bestow effects primarily benefiting the last-ranked players no matter *who* builds them.

Take your wonder idea, but have it so that you *end up* with 5 fewer factories than the civ in first place. If you are in first, you would *lose* factories. If you are in second, you might build it, or you might not... third place and below could get a bigger boost.

[This message has been edited by wheathin (edited December 14, 2000).]

needed to work the kinks out of the idea...
[This message has been edited by wheathin (edited December 14, 2000).]