20-12-2000 12:20									#1
	coracles in deeper water Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In civ2, triremes could leave into deeper water but had a chance to sink. Theres a percentage in CtP2 that implies that we could have the same feature here. has anyone tried it? i think the large invisible wall that prevents early boats from going into deep water is silly. Heck, theres theories that reed boats crossed the atlantic and we know the vikings did it (which of the CtP2 ships are most like viking ships?)

Or is this yet another flag that means nothing?

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History is written by the victor.

	20-12-2000 18:22									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

the Longship is most closely associated with the Vikings. as for the flag to which u refer, i too have seen it but since i'm not at home i can't remember what it was called. i know though that i've seen the flag...just don't think it was ever implemented.

	20-12-2000 21:57									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

In late prehistoric and early ancient times, the Polynesian ancestors used a unique kind of large boat that they used to colonize islands in the Pacific. These islands were hundreds of miles if not thousands of miles apart! It was very impressive that any people could do this with such primitive technology.

	21-12-2000 06:27									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

That's right. Check out the excellent book "Guns,germs and steel" (J. Diamond from UCLA, I believe), for an interesting deduction about the movements of world population.

	21-12-2000 06:34									#6
	Remove this text

Not sure if this is the flag he was referring to, but this is the one that caught my eye when I starting digging through some of the .txt files.

From const.txt
CHANCE_LOST_AT_SEA 30 # chance of a unit being lost at sea

	21-12-2000 09:11									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Hey Colorme - I have indeed, read that excellent book.

In fact I own it - but a friend who lives long distance has borrowed it and I think he lost it - damn it!

	21-12-2000 09:47									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

MrFun,

The book makes one believe that one should have a tech fusion trigger (I think this was programmed in one of the CTP1 mods).

Contact with an enemy unit gives you a point each, and you get an enemy tech whenever accumulated points exceed a threshold.

Will penalize the Great Wall (or whatever it's called in CTP2) type of play ...

P/S Buy the book again ... it's not too often that a serious scientific book makes it to the New York Times bestsellers list!


[This message has been edited by colorme (edited December 20, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by colorme (edited December 20, 2000).]

	21-12-2000 10:01									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Polynesians had the Double Outrigger Canoe, which provided an exceptionally stable "hull" for their long distance voyaging. An even more useful example, though, is the open-ocean voyages by the Grain Fleet that supplied Rome: 1000 - 1500 ton capacity sailing cargo vessels (loaded with grain) which regularly crossed the Med from Egypt to Italy and back. Another example: the sailing ships that crossed the Indian Ocean from the ports on the Red Sea and Arabia to India for the spice trade, starting to do this pretty regularly from about 200 AD - long before LongShips or other later open ocean craft in Europe.
The real problem is that none of these were warships. While a fairly large Mediterranean sailing cargo ship could run with a crew of 8 - 20 men and so carry provisions to stay at sea for a long time, the warships were all oared craft with 200+ men aboard and had to put to shore every night practically, and could carry almost no supplies (the only reason for allowing a game trireme to carry a unit is that they shipped marines which in a fleet amounted to a subsantial military force).
We need to be able to differentiate between early warships, symbolized by the Trireme, and cargo ships like the Coracle (which I gather is a generalized sailing vessel). The Trieme would have an attack factor and a high probability of sinking (50%+) away from land. The sailing ship, even early, might have a 40 - 50% chance, but a later Advance (like Hull Making or Mechanics = pulleys and mechanized rigging) that reduces its sink chance to 25 - 30%.
On a related note, the ratio between land and sea movement is 'way out of whack in the game (and in all Civ games, for that matter). A foot-marching army on good roads might average 15 - 20 miles a day (Roman standard was about 15). A slow sailing vessel doing 4-5 knots will cover 80 - 120 miles a day, even if it 'lays up' at anchor for 8 hours or so while the crew sleeps! This means that, really, even the Coracle should be moving about 4 times faster than a dismounted unit at Road Rate on land. Now, I don't think this is workable-if for no other reason, what do you do with a late 20th century Carrier or nuclear submarine that can cruise at 20 + knots, or 24 x the road rate? A compromise, I think, would be to approximately double sea movement rates, add a percentage chance of sinking for all sail or oar-propelled vessels

	21-12-2000 11:13									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I definitely agree on increasing ship movement. Even late in the game in CtP1 it could take 10+ turns to move units by sea. Far too slow!!! So I assume the same take forever approach here. The big question is to double or triple it. And then does that increase air movement rates. with cities so far apart, planes barely can get from one city to the next.

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History is written by the victor.

	23-12-2000 06:40									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Does anyone agree that there should be a chance (decreasing over time), no matter what era, that ships will sink. Ships still sink today due to the forces of nature, and will probably continue to do so far into the future.

	23-12-2000 07:05									#13
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No thanks Hawk - the ghosts of the Titanic prefers we learned our lessons.