16-12-2000 14:47									#1
	Sensible tech tree????? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Has anyone finished a tech tree that makes more sense than the rubbish that came with the game? i know some people were working on it but seemed to be having some problems.

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History is written by the victor.

	16-12-2000 20:19									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Ive created one using the minimalist approach. I added 15 new techs (Naval Warfare, Engineering, Art of War, Gothic Architecture, Machine Tools, Chivalry, Sky Scrapers, Napoleonic Warfare, Submarine Warfare, Adv. Weapons Machinery, Submarine Warfare, Anatomy & Physiology, Microbiology, Credit Card, Integrated Circuit)and rearranged many parts of the Tech Tree.

There are a LOT of techs I'd like to have directly represented in the game, but they would serve no purpose other than as "filler" techs --and I wanted to to keep such things at a minimum.

I created the new techs with a couple things in mind: 1)Only create a tech if it gives you something (unit, impovement, etc.) 2)Break up the military eras 3)If neither of the previous two, use the new tech only if necessary to draw together several technologies as prerequisites for another essential technology [this is only necessary because (at least in CTP1) you cannot have more than 2 prereqs per tech].

I didn't put this tech tree together haphazardly either. I did a lot of research and gave it a lot of thought. It's not perfect, but it's a LOT better than the default tech tree.

If you want I can send it to you. If you would like to wait, I could write a synopsis of the reasoning behind my tech tree changes to go along with it. Also keep in mind that I have not modified the Great Library entries yet.

I also added some new units: Trireme, Viking Ship, War Galleon, War Elephant, Warhorse, Ancient Cavalry, Legion, Musketeer, Rifleman, Longbowman, Horse Artillery, Dragoons, Howitzer, and Panzer Army (WWII Tank). I also changed their values extensively.

It's not a polished product, but my wife and I have been enjoying it. We're still playtesting it.
[This message has been edited by Colonel Kraken (edited December 18, 2000).]

	16-12-2000 23:06									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'd love to see it. Especially if you have a write up on it. Because of all the changes I tend to make, its hard for me to just copy things verbatim, as I tend to lose some of my changes. i have the same theory about advances. If it doesnt directly give me something, it shouldnt be there. In particular, now I need a bridge building/engineering tech since I figured out how easy it is to build roads over beach terrain.

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History is written by the victor.

	18-12-2000 05:45									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This sounds interesting..... I might want to try this someday. But I'm also in the habit of leaving projects everywhere, so I might never be done.....

	18-12-2000 20:22									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

To be honest with you, I didn't even try it. If it is possible to have more than 2 techs as prerequisites, that would be great.

I guess I should have tried it. I just assumed Activision would keep it the same, since it would go against their grain to actually make that kind of change --especially since their tech tree poster shows not more than two prereq's per advance.

I'll try it tonight and let you know.

	19-12-2000 03:45									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yes. It seems that you can, indeed, have more than two prereq's per advance. I only did a simple test by changing one advance's prereq's to 3 and then 4. The scenario loaded fine. I launched the game and checked the Great Library. Sure enough, there they were --the three (and then four) prereq's for the advance.

I have NOT playtested it, though --meaning I have not started playing a game with that change and then research the advance that has been changed.

I am confident, however, seeing how, before, the scenario would not even load in CTP1 if I had more than two prereq's per advance.

If it's true, this changes things. I'll have to redo my tech tree again.

Keep checking this post for more as I look into this further.

Thanks for the support.

	20-12-2000 10:07									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Are you adding any new techs or rearranging them more logically?

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History is written by the victor.

	20-12-2000 06:04									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm doing both.


As far as having more than 2 prereqs . . .

I tried requiring 3 advances for Bronze Working and then played a game up to the point that I discovered Bronze Working. There were no problems. The game did require me to wait until I had ALL three technologies discovered before I could research Bronze Working.

I don't know what the limits are for prerequisites. However, I don't think you would need or want more than 4. In fact, rarely in my new tech tree are there more than 2 prereqs per advance.


[This message has been edited by Colonel Kraken (edited December 20, 2000).]

	20-12-2000 11:17									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There have been several people who have e-mailed me concerning my new tech tree. That's fine; I appreciate the interest. But I'll post here when I am finished with it. I am currently refining it.

When certain issues with my e-mail service have been resolved I will be able to e-mail the new tech tree to MarkG for posting. It will be an unfinished product, meaning it will not have a modified Great Library. It will be functional, though.

Hopefully all will be done within a couple of days.

Thank you.

	22-12-2000 08:43									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have finished my modified tech tree and am currently playtesting a game with the modifications. I will hopefully have it available to others to playtest within a couple of days.

I have added 15 or so new advances, re-arranged many parts of the old tech tree to make it more logical, added 20 new units and changed the graphics on a couple of the old ones, added 4 or 5 new wonders, and added 2 new city improvements.

I have significantly changed the values of the military units. If more than one unit of the same type (land/sea) appears in relatively the same era, I have attempted to make sure there were pluses and minuses to building that unit versus the other choices. Each era of military units gets progressively stronger such that it is difficult for a previous era unit to defeat a new era unit unless they outnumber the new units by quite a margin.

Thanks for the support.

	22-12-2000 08:51									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

wow, sounds like an entire mod

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	23-12-2000 02:19									#13
	Remove this text

Great. The tech tree is one thing i am a bit annoyed with. One comment if I may, I suggest one change that made my games alot better and harder. If you make defensive units cheaper to support and cheaper to build which is logical and some of them are cheaper even know. The effect of lowering the defensive units support cost is two sided. The AI can have more defensive units before reaching the support cost cap. + The AI can use the remaining support cost to build offensive units improving its ability to attack.

This will mean that a war will cost more than keeping the peace.

Could you mail me the finished tech tree when its ready?

Regards
/Mathias

	23-12-2000 03:58									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I second that motion. great idea!!!!!

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History is written by the victor.

	24-12-2000 11:39									#15
	Put an end to popups!

You will very simply be able to change the unit cost and support cost of units by opening Units.txt and changing the values for "ShieldCost" and ShieldHunger" respectively. But I believe, for the most part, you will find my unit values at least somewhat appropriate.

	24-12-2000 11:47									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I have sent my modification to MarkG. Hopefully I sent it to the right e-mail address and it made it ok. If so, we should be seeing my mod posted in the downloads section soon. If not, well . . .

I can't stress enough that this mod has not been fully tested for balance and logical progression issues. It is an unfinished work put out by (at least somewhat) popular demand. I ask you to please provide feedback.

It is named v0.9. It does not have a modified Great Library yet. I will attempt to do that when I have the time (because it's going to take quite a while). Also, I will be providing an essay on my reasoning behind the changes (hopefully).

Please read the readme files. They will, I hope, provide valuable information.

Thanks for the support.