01-01-2001 05:23									#1
	Technology ideas for Med mod II Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

As those of you who have kept up with the Alpha thread know, I am working on the new techs that will be in the Med mod II. I am starting this thread as a forum for you to give any proposals you have for new techs, or the re-naming of existing techs.
I plan to add about 3 dozen new techs to the game, and will probably re-name a good many of the existing techs.
Let me know what you would like to see.

	01-01-2001 09:48									#2
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Well if your going to add that many techs are you going to make the game any longer so they can be used longer? Well Really I cant think of any new techs to add but I can recommend some tech rearrangements on the current tree. First of all somehow move fascism to the modern age.also add computers, guided weapon systems, and nuclear power alot earlier not in genetice age. Maybe instead of moving guided weapon systems earlier add another prerquisite like rocketry and include a new unit the V2 rocket under it. Also add more range to nukes because nowadays nukes can reach anywhere on the planet from any location and it would be nice if that could be true in CTP2. Well these are only suggestions and they maybe vague but good luck.

	01-01-2001 10:43									#3
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Just keeping with the debate the above poster posted movement range with nukes I highly disagree, if we want ICMB's that would be a different unit from an actual bomb or a SLBM, possibly some new tech involved during the space age style advances.

	02-01-2001 10:29									#4
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I've been fiddling with Advances and tech changes since Civ II and especially ever since I saw the Tech Tree poster (before the game was out) for CtPII. Here are my observations on the problems with the current Tree:
1. Advances out of sequence. Most often people mention the Democracy, Fascisim, Communism governments, but there are some other cheesoz in the tree as well:
Guided Wepaons before Nuclear Power
Vertical Flight Aircraft before Paratroopers/Marines
Corporate Republic before Computer OR Mass Transit
and so on and on.
2. A real dearth of advances in the Medieval to renaissance period, so that you zoom from ancient units to machinegunners in a (relative) few turns. By the time you get pikemen built you get musketeers/infantrymen, and by the time you get some of them built you're almost to machinegunners.
3. Not enough Advances for the new units proposed. There are especially not enough advances for the mass of new ancient to renaissance/early modern units proposed, unless you wind up getting 2-3 units per advance, which usually means some units will never be built by any human player and so are wasted in the game.
There are two basic schools of thought on tech: those that want advances or application for every possible technical, social, political, and economic change in human history, and those who want only enough to implement the neat new units, wonder, and improvements. I confess, I started out in the first camp (once put together a proposed CivIII tech tree with 220 advances or applications, and I weren't finished with it when I gave up!) but have changed my mind. You can justify virtually every technical advance one way or the other, but part of design is making decisions on what to leave out because the tech tree is obscuring the game forest. I can show where the development of the Warp-weight Loom (3000 BC), Vertical Loom (1500 BC), Spinning Wheel (1250 AD), Draw Looms (1567 AD), Spinning Jenny (1764 AD), and Jacquard Loom (1801 AD) all affected cloth production and trade and economics of international trade dramatically, and should therefore be included in the economic branch, but the game becomes a monster when you do that for every single possible advance or set of advances.
Therefore, my suggestion: If you have new advances to propose, please indicate what unit, improvement, or wonder they will implement or what advances they should be the prerequisite for, with particular emphasis on the proposed new units we don't have advances for at the moment.
And another suggestion: let's see some more advances based on non-technical inventions. Stuff like the changes in mathematics, handling of paper money and bills of exchange, thinking about military doctrine and tactics, that made bigger changes than the 'mere' technical invention. For instance, the samurai was a warrior equipped with iron armor and a steel sword and instilled with an extremely offensive tactical doctrine. What makes him different from a Jomsviking of the same historical time frame who is dressed in iron mail, has a steel sword, and occasionally goes berserk in battle?

	02-01-2001 02:37									#5
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Well mainly what I would like to see is everything currently on the tech tree put in the correct order. And you dont have to be a historian to see that the tech tree is badly out of order involving the prerequisites.

	02-01-2001 02:45									#6
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Oh ya how bout designing an new missile weapon towards the end of the genetic and diamond age since cruise missiles arent that useful and nukes dont exist anymore. Nowadays we are seeing ranged warefare that requires a minimal amount of human loss on the war field. How bout some new missile units like chemical weapons or biological missiles that wipe out a percentage of the cities population. Of course these would be considered atrocities too. Maybe design new technologies (new military tactics maybe) that lead to more ranged warfare and more air units. How bout laser or ion cannon weapons with an advance of there own?? Oh ya I would love to see some attack helicopters too. Probably the helicopters would go under vertical flight aircraft. Really I would like to see more technologies and units involving aerial combat and missle combat.

	02-01-2001 08:37									#7
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Here is a list of the new advances I have added to the game, and a list of current advances I have re-named. I also moved around a lot of other advances to address things like Diodorus mentioned. I have not gotten around to linking the advances yet. I will post the advances chart soon so that you can get a look at it. It is still a work in progress, but I feel pretty good with what we have so far, and I think you will too.
All but about five of the new advances enable something, so there is some slack if the game seems to bog down with the current number of advances, but I think this list is pretty trim as far as having anything that doesn't deserve to be represented.

1)Domestication
2)Wheel
3)Aristocracy
4)Citizenship
5)Stirrup
6)Conscription
7)Flintlock
8)Infantry Tactics
9)City State
10)Astronomy
11)Radio
12)Republic
13)Combined Arms
14)Mechanical Power
15)Steam Engine
16)Sanitation
17)Rocketry
18)Refrigeration
19)Radio
20)Paper
21)Chronometer
22)Mechanical Clock
23)Eletro-Magnetism
24)Machine Tools
25)Currency
26)Contraception
27)Conscription
28)Compass
29)Astronomy
30)Theocracy
31)Imperialism
32)Indoor Plumbing
33)Civil Engineering
34)Amphibious Warfare
35)Automatic Weapons
36)Adv. Naval Aviation
37)Vertical Warfare
38)Adv. Mobile Warfare
>> Crop Rotation- old Ag. Rev.
>> Electrification- old Electricity
>> Engineering- old Concrete
>> Steel- old Adv. Naval Tactics
>> Composite Bow- old Ballistics
>> Organized Religion- old Religion
>> Paper Currency- old Banking
>> Plough- old Agriculture
>> Mobile Warfare- old Tank Warfare

One new improvement I have already decided to add- a middle-game version of City Walls called the Vauban Fortress.

	02-01-2001 09:48									#8
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#6 and #27

	02-01-2001 12:45									#9
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all i want is an early diplomat(even as early as writing!)

	02-01-2001 21:35									#10
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Hi Wes,

It has been a slow day at work so I have had the chance to look at your advance chart. Following are some questions and observations I have about it.

1) What advances gives the ability to build undersea cities?
2) Jet Propulsion should probably come before Supersonic Flight.
3) Geometry list Ballistics as a prerequisite, but I don't see Ballistics anywhere on the tech tree.
Mechanical Clock and Compass along with Cannon Making should all come before Chronometer since Chronometer gives you Ships of the Line.
4) From the tech tree it looks like you can get Bombards, Flintlocks, and Cannon Making all without getting Gunpowder.
5) From the tech tree it looks like you can get Carrack and Cog without first getting Hullmaking.
6) The Governments all look good. I especially like the addition of City State and Imperialism.
7) Do you have a Sprite of the War Elephant and what is a Grenadier?
8) What is a Culverin and how does it differ from a bombard?
9) What roles will the Destroyer, PT Boat, Frigate, and Missle Cruiser play with respect to each other?
10) Need to make Nuclear Carrier have a prerequisite of Nuclear Power or you need to rename it Super Carrier or Advanced Carrier instead.
11) What happened to the Cruise Missle? I don't see it anywhere.

Well that is all for now.

Timothy Pintello

	03-01-2001 02:53									#11
	Put an end to popups!

Thanks, Cool Kitty. I have already ran across more of that type of snafu than I like, but I guess it can't be helped. That's what I have you guys for, anyway,

Mark, in appreciation of my gratitude for making me the the prettiest host on Apolyton, website-speaking, I am going to give you your Noble even before writing, I think.

Tim, I will answer your questions later. Remember that I have not begun to link the advances yet, and their have already been several changes to the chart I posted last night.

	05-01-2001 08:45									#14
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Actually you've lumped two transitions together: the first, the move from the smooth-bore musket to the rifled musket as a general infantry weapon, and the second, the move to a multi-shot long-range rifled firearm.
The first took place almost entirely due to the discovery of an application of the "Monroe Effect", the same process that makes Shaped Charge projectiles work. Basically, if there is a pocket in the base of the bullet, the force of the propelling charge will be concentrated into that pocket and, in the case of a soft metal (lead) bullet, will expand the base of the bullet as it moves through the barrel. This meant that bullets did not have to be made large enough to enageg the rifling before they were fired- they'd expand to do so after firing. This increased the rate of fire of the rifled musket to match that of the smoothbore, so the rifled arms replaced the smoothbores in all major armies between 1840 and 1860. The new type of conoidal bullet with a hollow base is generically termed the "Minie Ball" after the French officer who first applied the discovery.
The second conversion required mainly smokeless (nitrocellulose-based) powder to replace gunpowder. The smoke produced by gunpowder reduced the effective range of the rifle to how far the infantryman could see, which after a few rounds was about 10 feet - most of the firefights in the US Civil War took place at very close range because you simply couldn't see targets at long range for any length of time. With smokeless powder vision was maintained and fire was maintained at ranges out to half a mile or more - a 800% increase over the average range with smoothbores! Self-contained cartridges and breechloading magazine mechanisms increased the rate of fire enormously, but the dramatic increase in effective range and accuracy alone would have made Napoleonic close-order infantry attacks suicidal anyway: Pickett's Charge in 1863 and Gravelotte in 1870 had already showed what riflemen could do to infantry lines. The infantry attack problem was fiercely debated throughout the last half of the century by military professionals, but it only got worse when the shell-firing artillery and machinegun were added to the defense, and wasn't solved until infantry went completely non-linear and got their own heavy weapons.
In game terms, that means we need Riflemen, having a greater attack and defense factor than Musketeers, machinegunners as a defensive infantry force, and with Infantry Assault Tactics (developed by the Germans in 1917-18) the addition of Assault Infantry with attack and defense factors about the same and greater than any previous unit except the machinegunner's defense factor.
One problem with all the Civ games has been that there has been no modern infantry unit: after riflemen you get marines, paratroopers and such specialists, or a future unit. The basic infantry of all the armies of the bulk of the twentieth century has been left out of every game since CivII at least, and it is one of my personal major toothgrinders of the games.

	05-01-2001 11:23									#15
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Here is the current tech list. I will also shortly upload the latest version of the advances chart.
I think we are about done (I know I am about done-in.), so this one is going to be about the final shape of things.

NEW:
1) ADVANCE_DOMESTICATION
2) ADVANCE_WHEEL
3) ADVANCE_ARISTOCRACY
4) ADVANCE_CITIZENSHIP
5) ADVANCE_PAPER
6) ADVANCE_CURRENCY
7) ADVANCE_INFANTRY_TACTICS
8) ADVANCE_ASTRONOMY
9) ADVANCE_STIRRUP
10) ADVANCE_COMPASS
11) ADVANCE_DECIMAL_SYSTEM
12) ADVANCE_MECHANICAL_POWER
13) ADVANCE_MECHANICAL_CLOCK
14) ADVANCE_FLINTLOCK
15) ADVANCE_MACHINE_TOOLS
16) ADVANCE_MILITARY_ENGINEERING
17) ADVANCE_STEAM_ENGINE
18) ADVANCE_CONSCRIPTION
19) ADVANCE_SANITATION
20) ADVANCE_ELETROMAGNETISM
21) ADVANCE_REFRIGERATION
22) ADVANCE_RADIO
23) ADVANCE_TELEPHONE
24) ADVANCE_ROCKETRY
25) ADVANCE_COMBINED_ARMS
26) ADVANCE_PLASTICS
27) ADVANCE_CONTRACEPTION
28) ADVANCE_AUTOMATIC_RIFLES
29) ADVANCE_DEEP_BATTLE_TACTICS
30) ADVANCE_INTEGRATED_MOBILE_WARFARE
31) ADVANCE_JOINERY
32) ADVANCE_ANATOMY
33) ADVANCE_REPEATING_RIFLES
34) ADVANCE_PSYCHOLOGY
35) ADVANCE_EVOLUTIONARY_THEORY
36) ADVANCE_SEISMOLOGY
37) ADVANCE_IMMUNIZATION
38) ADVANCE_AGRO_INDUSTRY
39) ADVANCE_MOLECULAR_SYNTHESIS
40) ADVANCE_HIGH_STRENGTH_POLYMERS
41) ADVANCE_AUTOMOBILE
42) ADVANCE_INTERNET
43) ADVANCE_EQUAL_RIGHTS
44) ADVANCE_SUPERSTRING_THEORY
45) ADVANCE_WOUTER
RE-NAMED:
1) AGRICULTURE TO PLOUGH
2) CONCRETE TO ENGINEERING
3) BALLISTICS TO COMPOSITE BOW
4) RELIGION TO ORGANIZED RELIGION
5) BANKING TO PAPER CURRENCY
6) AGRICULTURAL REV. TO CROP ROTATION
7) NAVAL TACTICS TO CHRONOMETER
8) DEMOCRACY TO CIVIL RIGHTS
9) ELECTRICITY TO ELECTRIFICATION
10) NAVAL AVIATION TO FLIGHT
11) TANK WARFARE TO MOBILE WARFARE
12) ADV. INFANTRY TACTICS TO ASSAULT INFANTRY TACTICS
13) ADV. NAVAL TACTICS TO STEEL
14) TOOLMAKING TO METAL WORKING
15) COMMUNISM TO SOCIALISM
REMOVED:
1)MONARCHY
2)FASCISM
3)TECHNOCRACY
4)CORP. REP.
5)VIRTUAL DEM.

	05-01-2001 12:21									#16
	Put an end to popups!

The "Wouter" technology I must say has been invaluable in making my Alexander mod. I think you should keep it in .

	05-01-2001 15:13									#17
	Inflate your Upload Space

ROFL! Yeah, that's an advance that will change the history of mankind forever
It allows you to build the Lazy Bastard unit

	06-01-2001 10:57									#18
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Hi Wes,

I have now taken a look at your newest Adv. Chart. It looks really good. The only problem that I can see is that it looks like you can get Railroad without Steam Engine. Also one of the Prerequisites for Railroad is Banking, but I can't find Banking on the Adv. Chart.

It also looks like you can get Paper Currency without first getting Paper and that you can also get Printing Press without getting paper. I would suggest making this order change. To get Paper Currency you have to first get Printing Press. To get Printing Press you have to first get Paper. Maybe to accomplish this you could position Paper between Classical Education and Printing Press. Possibly instead of putting Feudalism as the second prerequisite for Paper Currency put Printing Press. That way Paper Currency would still be in the tech tree as a prerequisite for Economics.

Another suggestion I would make is to put Banking right after Currency. I would then make Banks available with Banking instead of Paper Currency. I would advocate putting Banking and Banks so early because Bankers are metioned in a couple of Jesus' Parables indicating that they existed as far back in history as 2000 years ago, if not much further. If I had to guess, I would guess that the idea of banks and bankers was developed about the same time that currency became a common medium of exchange.

The Banking change listed in the previous paragraph would also allow you to change the second prerequisite for Railroad from Banking to Steam Engine. This would eliminate the problem listed at the start of this post while still permitting you to get Industrail Revolution prior to Steam Engine, which is the historic order anyway. The Industrail Revolution was less dependent on Steam Power than it was Mechanical Power anyway.

Hope my 2 cents worth helps.

Timothy Pintello

	06-01-2001 01:21									#19
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Pintello,
Here's the thinking behind Banking. Banks go waaaayyy back, but I don't think that's what CTP2 meant with its building. It meant a modern styled bank. Those didn't really start until paper currency developed, which happened around 800 AD in China and 1300 in Europe, I believe. Only with credit and loans done with "funny money" instead of hard coin, did banks really take off and become the things we think of today. So that's why Banking has been replaced by Paper Currency.

I like all your other linking ideas.

	06-01-2001 03:11									#20
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Hi Harlan,

4 for 5 isn't bad! I know of a lot of professional football teams that would like that kind of record. More seriously though, thanks for explaining the reasoning behind the Bank Improvement. Once you explained the reasoning I can see where it makes good sense in the scheme of things that ya'll are trying to represent with Wes's Mod. Glad you liked my other ideas. Now if we can only get Wes to buy into them we will be set. :-)

Regards,
Timothy Pintello