30-12-2000 13:28									#1
	Tentative Project Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

WARNING - for those who are sensitive to Euro-centric aspects of modifications or original features of CTP II, please refrain from reading this post.

Ok, now before I get down to business, I feel compelled to defend myself for those who are interested in this post. I am a university student studying for a BA in History and eventually in the years ahead, I will become a university instructor in history. I take the approach of multicultural interplay between Native Americans, Africans, and Europeans in my independent studies of the history of North America. I am NOT a racist, nor do I wish to constantly glorify the European race. I am well aware of cultural accomplishments of non-European peoples throughout world history so spare me lectures from those who say I am Euro-centric with my modification ideas. I CANNOT INCLUDE EVERY WONDER, BUILDING, ADVANCE, OR UNIT THAT ENCOMPASSES WORLD HISTORY.

There - now let's get down to business. I have several notebook pages of ideas roughly organized and wish to know what you think - other than the fact that most of these are European.

MODIFIED ERAS

Ancient
Middle Ages
Renaissance
Enligtenment
Modern World (divided in 19th and 20th centuries)

MODIFIED ADVANCES (* = new, added advances)

Ancient Era:

Stone Working
Masonry
Concrete
Feudalism (overlap into Middle Ages)

Toolmaking
Bronze Working
* Wheel - requires Toolmaking, Bronze Working and gives Chariot unit
Iron Working

Ship Building

Agriculture
Slave Labor
Ballistics
Horse Riding
* Special Tactics - requires Bronze Working, Horse Riding and gives War Elephant unit
Alchemy

* Polytheism - requires Religion, Trade and gives Ramayana wonder
Drama
Philosophy
* Cultural Art - gives FOW effect of increased diplomatic regard

* Alphabet - gives nothing except access to Writing advance
Writing
* Inventory Keeping - requires Trade, Writing and gives FOW effect of 15% decrease in crime
Jurisprudence
* Census Recordkeeping - requires Jurisprudence and gives Provincial Governor unit
Monarchy

Trade
* Coinage - requires Trade, Iventory Keeping and gives Tax Office city improvement

Geometry
* Map Making - requires Geometry, Monarchy and gives FOW effect of 50% reduction in placing Forts tile improvement for the next 20 turns


Middle Ages Era:

Fedualism
* Papacy - requires Monarchy, Feudalism and gives Church building (different from later Balisica)
* Castle Construction - requires Feudalism, Alchemy and gives FOW effect of 15% increase in production for rest of Middle Ages era, and also gives 15% bonus for fortified units in cities for 20 turns
Agricultural Revolution
* Manorism - requires Feudalism, Papacy and gives Baron's Manor city improvement

* Steel Working - requires Iron Working, Alchemy and gives Armored Footsoldier unit

Hullmaking

Theology

Bureaucracy

* Serf Taxation - requires Manorism, Agricultural Revolution and gives FOW effect of doubling effect of Tax Office city improvement

These are the ideas I have for modifications for the Ancient, Middle Ages, and Renaissance eras. I do not wish to make this post too long, so I will post part two separately. In part three, I will post descriptions of any new units, wonders, or city improvements listed in part one and part two.

	31-12-2000 00:33									#2
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I envy you Mr. Fun.

If I were to do it all over again and get my Ph.D. in another subject it would be history or physics. I have a great passion for historical novels, history books, and all the descriptions from whence we came.

I look forward to reading your contributions to the story of humanity before I retire from my own position as professor. I wish you the best in your pursuit!

Omni Datum Optimum

------------------
'Blood will run'

	01-01-2001 10:07									#3
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have you considered pottery as an ancient era advance .. although i believe covered somewhat in the others, it really was an essential storage and trade advance for it's time. alwats thought it was one of te major ancient advances, now where to place (before or after wheel .. as this allowed equivalent of mass production of pots etc, my view)?

just a thought.

john snider

	01-01-2001 04:14									#4
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You know what? I actually forgot about Pottery!

I will take a look at my plans again and see if I really need to include Pottery.

	02-01-2001 00:57									#5
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	03-01-2001 10:38									#6
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Couple more disjointed thoughts ...

1. Stone Working (?). What about Wood Working or should you combine wood/stone/brick (the ability to make bricks was a somewhat important find in ancient period)in one arena 'simple construction' or such.

2. Feudalism (Ancient and ). Possibly create Oligarcy for ancient period and not feudalism. Never see any discussion of oligarcy or 1st citizen type governments. Actually, would have tended to use this vs facism in the ctp2 game to start for when it was set to occur. An oligarch usually had own household troops (special) and supported public works and all that stuff.

3. Ballistics ... didn't see mathmatics. had geometry. but math in general wasn't represented. Was ballistics to represent this item also.

Some general thoghts ... paper, was this not an important advance (papyrus and all) that help preserve civilizations and spread knowledge (and trash to). Might wish to consider, printing press later pretty hard without this advance. Do like your outline on the ages, though rather then enlightenment might tend to call it the politically uncorret Age of Colinization or Expansionism. Was sondering where have the ability to draw metal, ie. create metal wire or strands, generalized under metal working or some other area??
Also, looking at your other posts (still thinking on them) biggest problem i'm having now is running out of things to research in the last 100-200 years of the game, you'll need to bring something in there also.

yours

john snider

	03-01-2001 01:24									#7
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The City State gvmt type that has been discussed on other threads is virtually the same as Oligarchy, the way I see it. Some city state gvmts were tyrannies, but most were oligarchies of one kind or another, even if they were called democracies. Even the famous democracy of ancient Athens wasn't really, since less than 20% of the people had the right to vote, and many more than that were slaves. Basically, rule of the rich. This holds true for the later city states of Italy as well, only the French Revolution gives a real Republic.

Also, I'm glad someone else has noticed paper. I think this was an extremely important advance most people overlook. I read a book once called The 100, a list of the 100 most influential people in history (according to the guys who wrote the book, anyways). Most of the top ten were religious figures, all except Tsai Lun, who'd I'd never heard of. Turns out he's the inventor of paper. That really surprised me.

	03-01-2001 11:56									#8
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Aha!! PAPER!! How could I have overlooked that?

I am still working on this roughdraft project as part of my mod project. All of these commments are welcome and post more if you have any. Then I will be glad to share the finished mod when I complete it somewhere down the road.

And please - don't forget about my other posts that are related with the Tentative Project. And as for techs in the last 100 years - I'm planning on leaving Genetic and Diamond tech tree branches unmodified unless someone can convince me otherwise.

	05-01-2001 01:18									#9
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And then there is Glass .. maybe not as important but an enabiler.

also has anyone ever considered the Dark Ages being implemented as an advance delay. In effect what it does is stop progress for x years while go through it and have to go through it to get to y (all the rest of the advances). It becomes a point to which all the ancient advances feed before the break out again into the multiple lines of research curretly in the game). tried this once in ctp1, rather then play with changing the cost for all the advances to accomplish the same thing. Can be looked at as a form of reactionary conservatism married to mystism or early religious strictness that discouraged new thoughts vice what it really was (to many barbarians with nothing to do in the evenings and not enough beer to go around).

john snider

	05-01-2001 08:02									#10
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I believe people have a misunderstanding of the Dark Ages by oversimplifying this historical era. Here are some advancements made in the real Dark Ages:

1) Agricultural Revolution,
2) establishment of monasteries,
3) growth of steel-making in China,
4) spread of paper to Muslim and Byzantine countries,
5) introduction of chain mail,
6) the beginnings of mechanization in several areas of production,
7) invention of shoulder collar for the horse along with horseshoes,
8) introduction of new writing systems in several countries,
9) and growth of agriculture and cities in the Americas

Take another look at the era that is mistakenly known as the Dark Ages.

	05-01-2001 19:12									#11
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JSnider

Currently, the mod I am working on takes the Ancient Age and stretches it out, turnwise, to the same length you would be at mid/late-Modern. I am planning on having the Dark Ages lag built-in by greatly increasing the cost of advances after the Ancient age and have the game run out at about pre-Renassaince.

(Generally, I like to play only to that point anyhow.)

But your idea is a good one, and might be easier to implement...
[This message has been edited by hexagonian (edited January 05, 2001).]

	06-01-2001 04:52									#12
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Understand dark ages not really dark or so my history prof always beat into my head, but wasn't proposing it for that but as a delay point as easy way to stop headlong rush to tanks in 100AD. Just and idea based on the mistaken assumption of many as you pointed out

john snider