19-02-2000 13:00									#1
	help me (balancing my science and tax rate) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

i have this problem in civ2 while playing MP. i go republic and i don't get enough money or not enough research. sometimes too much of one or the other. so i'd like someone to help me with my problem: balancing my science and tax rate so i get a good amount of money and research. any help would be apppreciated.

------------------
OFFICAL APOLYTON UBB CODE BUG
PROT VICE ADMINSTRATOR
ICQ: 57697251
provost_bug@hotmail.com
"I have the leadership abilities of a small cantaloupe."
-Stefu
it is against the laws of nature for an administrator to spam.
-MarkG

	19-02-2000 13:40									#2
	Tired of ads?

hehe..you qualify..now back to OT with ya

Adjust tax rate accordingly

	19-02-2000 14:35									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

In republic I generally only use 2 settings:

Max Sci (but with lux to ensure everybody happy)

WLTCD Lux (but with Sci as much as it can be)

I've never had problems with money, it just sort of accumulates. And getting a tech every 4 turns over every 3 just for 10/20 more gold per turn seems silly.
The only situation I try to build up gold is if I have cities vulnerable to bribing.

Graag

------------------
You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	19-02-2000 14:44									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

yes, but my money goes negative, so i lose money each turn

------------------
OFFICAL APOLYTON UBB CODE BUG
PROT VICE ADMINSTRATOR
ICQ: 57697251
provost_bug@hotmail.com
"I have the leadership abilities of a small cantaloupe."
-Stefu
it is against the laws of nature for an administrator to spam.
-MarkG

	19-02-2000 15:39									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ahh I see. I usually dont even worry about negative money, you should be getting extra money from either caravans or barb leaders. The loss of a couple hundred gold from your reserves is no biggie if it lets you get to democracy, phil, monotheism or whatever other important research goal you want. IMHO, science proggression is much more important than a negative balance.

Graag

------------------
You should never smoke in pyjamas, you could start a fire and burn your face

	19-02-2000 20:33									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

First, make sure you have been setting up an economy. Get those caravans going faster. Trade routes are the key to surviving in Democracy or Republic... and you should be building marketplaces and other economic improvements...

Also, if you are running low on money, make sure your city workers are more focused on trade squares vs production...

Once in Republic or Democracy, I tend to focus more on science and then happiness.
The only time I may jack up my taxes is if I know I need some extra money for a specific task in the near future, like buying a wonder or bribing

	19-02-2000 21:10									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

YOu may be trying to build too many improvements as welll..... like ming said.... focus on trade squares to make it worthwhile for that library and marketplace.... no point deleting your treasurey of 2g+ each turn if they have a small benefit or none at all..... i like 6 beakers before i build a library and 4 coins before i build a market...... and remember its all about establishing a bunch of cities with your core.....being upgraded by improvements and the outer rim defending your empire...... or something like that

	21-02-2000 17:46									#8
	Inflate your Upload Space

The answer, as always, is ICS (Infinite City Sleaze). Build lots of cities with *no* improvements. You can crank science to the max and still have a decent cash flow, because you have no expenses. This aspect of ICS is rarely discussed, but is one of its greatest strengths.

	01-03-2000 20:23									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

In addition to being careful about building improvements too early, take a hard look at what you need to build at all:

- temples are a must, so you can grow a little and put all your cits to work.

- as soon as a city makes two beakers, I think you want a library.

- as soon as a city makes two tax, you can afford a marketplace (but it will only make a profit when you get to four tax).

- make a city wall (no charge).

All other improvements may be unnecessary for a long time.

--toby

------------------
toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

	03-03-2000 00:50									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I usually only build improvements if the city can pay for them with it's own taxes (monarchy 30%-20%) unless it really needs that improvement; e.g. harbor if there is little alternative or factory(which i try to postpone due to pollution) with very low production.

i usually get the specialists to do taxes as under democracy i get about 2 or 3 turns advances without the scientists.

you also have to expand like hell early (1 defense, sett., defense, sett, others...) so that two or three gold surplus in each city really gets me something.

------------------
Hodad's First Body
Alien Infiltrate

	06-03-2000 01:27									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I actually find it to be a waste of money and shields to build factories in cities with low production. The factory just doesn
t make enough of a difference with a city that startes with production below 8-10. Going from 4 to 6 shirlds for a cost of 4 gold a turn just doesn
t cut it for me.

------------------
SandMonkey

"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson

"Ecky ecky ecky!"
"It's just a flesh wound!"
- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

	06-03-2000 01:50									#13
	Put an end to popups!

This is somewhat off-topic and I apologize for that but some of you have alluded to this above.

What do you do when you don't want to build anything that you can yet? i.e. You don't have enough science to warrant building a library yet or enough coins for a bank etc. and your city would have to support additional units if they were built so you don't want to build units.

	06-03-2000 01:57									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

First of all, if you're having problems with happiness, build happiness wonders, IE Hanging Gardens, Michs (very important) and Bachs. Also instead of lots of barracks build Sun Tzus... just like that... also build Adam Smiths, and build everything that costs one! Hoover Dam is also great, and one can't forget about Leos... I will usually ignore Republic (mainly becaus I like to combine ICS with my warmonger tendecies ) Republic can really screw you up a lot, make sure you don't have too many units and enough happiness... and remember have fun, and don't worry about being whipped early on... and BTW civ 2 takes much longer to get good than AOK... but they take the same amount of time to master... so good luck.

	06-03-2000 04:06									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, Always put science Max, money's not a biggie. Adams smith's trading Co. is a must! But you'll get the hang of it, I'm just trying to break the warlord record on apolyton, I think I can manage it.

------------------
MasterBob,
Master of all Bobs,
Webmaster---Come to the Civworld Forums

If you do not go the wise way of the fish, you shall slowly go the way of the buffalo.

	06-03-2000 23:22									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

SparrowHawk,

You have many choices if you do not want to build any of the available units. I doubt this is even a complete list...

(1) Build a caravan anyway (if you can) unless you are convinced it will die the moment it tries to leave the city. (You could disband it later to help build something else...)

(2) Build whatever would take the longest to build, hoping you will never complete it (even if that is a wonder already being built); you can change later when something good comes a long.

(3) Rearrange your citizens to MINIMIZE production in that city, perhaps they can make more cits and trade for awhile untii there is something useful to build.

(4) Sell something you've already built (maybe barracks) and build it again!

(5) In times of peace and quiet: build another of the cheapest unit that is stationed in the city. When that unit is partly built, disband the unit to help build its replacement.

BUT: This situation should not arise very often. If it does, your normal strategies are getting you into trouble, hope you can figure out what to change.

NOTE: Before someone complains that you can ALWAYS build a caravan, try playing the ToT fantasy game, where many cities are never ever able to build any caravans...

- toby


------------------
toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

	06-03-2000 23:56									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If you are playing SP:

Before Monarchy: 60% science, 40$ tax. Research goal: Monarchy.
Monarchy to Invention: 0% science, 70% tax, 30% Luxury. Build marketplace/bank to make your cities celebrate WLTKD. Get advances from goody huts and through diplomacy.
Invention to Railroad: Max science, change all citizens to scientists if possible (even with food deficit). Research goal: Railroad.
Railroad to Democracy: same setting as above. Build Darwin's Voyage to get two advances.
After Railroad and democracy: 0% science, 80% tax, 20% luxury. More luxury when you can celebrate WLTKD. Use caravans to get one tech advance per turn (you need one scientist or your research will halt). Build marketplace/bank/stock exchange.

Only build library/university/research lab in one city (SSC) with Collosus/Copenius/Newton.

	07-03-2000 00:55									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Xin, the only problem that I've had doing something similar to that is if you're playing on a large map and someone manages to get invention quickly... you can't get techs out of goody huts, and you would have come in contact with only 2 or 3 civs. I like to do something similar to that, except rely on GL. Its certainly not the best strategy b/c you'll always be in 3rd or worst with science. But it really helps if you're going on a diplomat war... (what other kind is there )

	07-03-2000 01:09									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

A simplistic reply to Sparrow: Build caravans and when you are done building enough of them, build some more. You should get to the point fairly quickly (after Trade) that all wonders are built with caravans, and only a few key improvements as Xin Yu mentioned.

	07-03-2000 02:06									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Caesar the Great: In MPE you can still get advance from goody huts before YOU discover invention. With 70% tax you can buy caravans to build the embassy. And you can bribe cities from AIs to get more techs. And when you set science to 0%, AI will do it too, so nobody's gonna get invention fast (AI will most likely stop opening goody huts after a while).

Think about two players using different science rates: Player A set science 70% and tax 30%, Player B set science 0%, tax 70% and luxury 30%. Player A will get several techs, Player B will get 3 times the money as Player A (the 30% luxury will give more trade due to celebrating, hence Player B in effect has 100% tax). Player B then uses the money to bribe cities from Player A and gets both territory and techs.
[This message has been edited by Xin Yu (edited March 06, 2000).]

	07-03-2000 05:13									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Xin is this the strategy you plan to use in MP ??????? i am curious as to what levels you set science lux and tax at in MP is it the same or does it fluctuate each turn ?

	07-03-2000 05:25									#22
	Get a bigger avatar today!

be afraid, be very afraid

	07-03-2000 05:54									#23
	Remove this text

Xin,
As usual, you have the most radical ideas which works better than the norm . I notice that all Civ-related games have some
sort of "equalizer" factor and will penalize you if you're too far ahead, or help you along to catch up if you're far behind.
Since you're turning off the science rate probably you will simply get a better chance of getting advances from huts and are given new techs from other civs as well (or the AI penalize the other Civs instead). Of course, bribery will get you to Invention in a few turns after someone gets it .
What's unfair is that the equalization formula doesn't take into account your other
infrastructure factors, like number of bases, big populations, and oodles of cash on hand. By the time you turn your science rate back on the other Civs will be probably be left in
the dust.
Anyway, I have to check this out. Just got back to CivII after a year on SMACs (and a week or two on CTP). How fast you do get to Future Tech using this strategy ?

	07-03-2000 15:17									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Xin - Fearsome analysis as usual - just one question.
In the Democracy phase how many cities building how many caravans to get one advance per turn with science at 0% only one scientist and only one city (SSC) with the science improvements?

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	07-03-2000 19:20									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

Doesnt the strategy depend on the situation? For example, if you are playing "no birbe cities" in MGE, then bribing to get technology wont work. If you are playing against the AI on a large board, same problem, since they can be hard to reach. Playing against the AI on a large or medium board I prefer to max out science, build the SSC, and use caravans to keep the treasury filled. When I start pulling away in science (usually about the time of invention) I will often trade science for money in order to keep building up my infrastructure and minimize the program-imposed science handicap.

------------------
"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales


[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited March 07, 2000).]

	07-03-2000 23:19									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

SSC gives 288 science (16 scientists, library, university, newton, copenius) and you may need a food caravan every now and then to keep the city from starving.

The number of caravans needed depends on your city size. You may need as many as 20 caravans trading on two continents at first. They are worthless . But once you can build freights and superhighways you need only 3-4 freights. The good news is, they are only 10 turns away from democracy .

The logic of putting science to 0% on democracy is that we can use the extra money to buy caravans. Ironically by doing this we put MORE resources to science: not only the trade icons, but also the shield productions are used towards the next advance. One exception is that if, after buying caravans in all cities in one turn, we still have more money left, then we should raise the science rate and cut the tax. Another factor is that we only build marketplace/bank in cities so for one science bulb sacreficed we get two tax coins. We don't build library/university since they are only useful for a short period of time (after invention and before superhighways).

	08-03-2000 00:12									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think it is brilliant the way Xin establishes balanced tax/luxury/science for his game by setting the tax/luxury/science rates extremely unbalanced!! I've been using caravans to obtain science advances/gold, but Xin's method goes one BIG step further! I'll be trying that method in my next game, just as soon as I kill all these pesky Babylons. Thanks Xin!!!!

	08-03-2000 00:12									#28
	Tired of ads?

In MP games trade is the key. I'll switch to 0% science after trade instead of monarchy.

The setting of 0% science, 70% tax, 30% luxury, and only build marketplace/banks has two benefits.

First, marketplace/banks increases both tax and luxury, so you get 100% benefit from your tax rate settings (tax+luxury=100%). Library/university can only increase science so you may never get the full advantage of it.

Second, high luxury rate takes care of the happiness problem, and your cities can celebrate WLTKD which in turn increases your tax revenue.

The drawback of this setting is that science advance is gone. But you can build caravans! Caravans can be recycled (trade, use the bonus to buy another caravan, trade again) and they build trade routes! Who needs science if there's another way to get an advance?

	08-03-2000 00:22									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Xin:
288 for an SSC?? A good-sized SSC should give you 800-1000 prior to superhighways, 1200-1500 after superhighways and research lab. Perhaps you forgot to count the value of three trade routes in the SSC or the fact that scientists give you more lightbulbs than it says in the manual.

I agree with your logic that 0% science lets you devote more resources to science, but a good trade strategy lets you get into the exception you cite. Figure 1200 science from SSC, plus four freight units per turn at about 700 science (and coins) each, for a total of 4000 science per turn, enough to get you one discovery per turn no matter what. Even with 0% taxes, you get 2800 coins per turn from trade, which is enough to rush-buy the four trade caravans you need every turn and still put 2000 per turn into the treasury. Rush-buying caravans is self-sustaining. Its like printing your own money.

------------------
"I fear that I shall die a Prince."
-Edward VII, Prince of Wales


[This message has been edited by Adam Smith (edited March 07, 2000).]

	08-03-2000 00:36									#30
	Got spare money?

time out on this post...


okay, after thinking about it I see the 288 or there abouts... 16*3+48trade*1.5^4

Xin is that what you are thinking too?

edit, no I guess not, trade routes wouldn't count, so the 16 scientists at 3 beakers each get raised by 150%^4. Or do they get more than 3?

[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited March 07, 2000).]