29-02-2000 10:44									#31
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Is peeking or restarting ok? I know it's from the same start position... but you know if battles are lost and such.

	29-02-2000 10:48									#32
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I usually build the Hoover Dam - but obviously can't in this game. I have electronics and a factory in one of my cities, but there is no option to build a Hydro Plant - only the pollution causing Power Plant which I don't want.

Do you have to build the Power Plant first? It's such a different game without wonders!
(Playing 2.42)
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SG (2)

	29-02-2000 11:51									#33
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Here are two requests to people who want to send me their saved games from this challenge:

1. Please send me a zip containing all your saves after you finish the game. If you send me the saves in several smaller packages I would just get a whole bunch of zips and would lose track of it.

2. Please put your Apolyton username in the name of the zip. That makes it easier for me to keep track of the various zips I will be receiving.

	01-03-2000 00:33									#34
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I don't think it is that the wonders are over rated(remember the ai couldn't build them either) more that they are great time savers. But the game is playable and win-able without them.And, it is very educational to play without them.Near the end I HAD to sell off sewers to keep from celebrating up in size at 10% luxuries

	01-03-2000 02:29									#35
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Smash,
I tried the 3 city strategy after the fact--did really well. Oh, and your right about the wonders being useful to the AI. In fact, part of the excitement of an OCC game is making sure you get Copernicus or Darwins before AI. Also, nothing worse than the AI getting Hoover and Seti in a close OCC game...at least we don't have to worry about that in this version.

Going back to your three city approach, I managed three cities up to size 28 without going above 10% luxury. Two of my cities were at size 26, but the capital with the Spice was 28. Also built anti-pollution for all three cities and managed a 50+shield output for two cities and a 80+ shield for one city. Three cities was much easier to implement too....hate to see Paul's results....But with a second chance, using V2.42 and OCC Trade principles and OCC Science giveaway, I managed 1896 AC. All three cities had three early trade routes and near the end, each trade route averaged 20+ trade contribution. Science was over or around 900 beakers at 10% luxury.

Thoroughly enjoyed the second attempt--no 6 turn bouts with Anarchy

AU

	01-03-2000 07:47									#36
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Zulu Spaceship landed.

I played an expansionist isolationist strategy! I expanded to the nearby islands, but had as little to do with the neighbors as possible. This meant
No diplo/spy
No trading for techs or asking tribute.
No attacks on enemy territory (I counterattacked their units on my islands.)

I did allow myself to dump caravans on their cities for trade, though that didn't last for all that long (they kept on sneak attacking my triremes/caravans). I don't know how to avoid that in MGE, any suggestions?

I ended up with 13 cities (had 14 but 1 got conquered mid-game). The Indians built Apollo, but I was able to rush-build the spaceship and landed in 1916.

I was never able to get Paul's unzipped version of the scenario to work, but the zipped version worked fine when I eventually tried it. I've mailed my saved games to Paul, though unfortunately they're not at as regular of intervals as I would have liked!

It will be interesting seeing what people did. Thanks for starting this off, DaveV!

	01-03-2000 21:59									#37
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English clobbered. Only a few turns from Gunpowder, then I'll start clobbering all those size 8 French cities.

	01-03-2000 23:50									#38
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An interesting game. Played in Deity v242.

I followed an OCC strategy with this one, and landed on AC in 1801. I've forwarded my saves (as close to 20 turn intervals as I could remember at the time) and a log to Paul, but here are a few comments on the game.

- I formed an alliance with all AI civs on the first turn, and kept the alliances the whole game. In fact, there was not one battle fought, even between the AIs. I thought I should get a 600 point bonus for peace, but it seems to max out at 33. Without barbarians, I disbanded all defensive units when I switched to Republic.

- The AIs grew a lot faster on this medium map than they do on a small map. Unlike the usual 6 or 7 techs that the AI researches ahead of me in a typical OCC game, the AI researched 39 techs (which I got through trade) ahead of me.

- I built 6 cities fairly early on, and expanded to 10 cities by the end of the game. In retrospect, I would have been better off with the 6 cities (I got the first 6 cities up to size 21, except for my capital which reached 32).

- Since I didn't want to fight pollution all game, I decided to not build any factories. My capital had a production of 19, with the other cities ranging from 7 to 13 production. I rush bought most improvements instead of producing them. I wasn't able to build as many improvements as I would have liked, but I was getting a science every two turns later in the game, which is all that really counts when going for AC.

	02-03-2000 03:11									#39
	Got spare money?

One request to people who mail me their saves: please tell me which version of Civ2 you have used.

	02-03-2000 10:23									#40
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First off, I'd like to start a big round of applause for DaveV...I don't know about the rest of you, but I really enjoyed this challenge.

Do you think we could make this into a tradition, like the OCC? Say NWC for No Wonders Challenge?

Also, I'm curious how Dave managed to get the Romans to disappear with all the wonders...was it a 0-size city, or barbs, or what?

I played 5-cities on the rock, all ports, almost exclusive perfectionist, with occasionally colonizing a new continent. I played prince (yeah, I'm a wimp , but it kind of evens out, since I didn't think to check the contacts until I met the French (around 1 AD if memory serves me right), so I lost big-time of tech trading.

Went republic, headed straight for democracy. Alternated max science possible to get a critical tech with max tax-rate to buy marketplaces, temples, aquaducts...I had most of my cities maxed out, or in WLTP days by around 500 AD.

Met the french and indians, set up a toehold on the western edge of indian's continent. They would occasionally attack me (ha! elephants charging uphill into the rain of musketballs from veteran musketeers, fortified behind city walls), and each time they attacked, I bribed a city away before the senate stepped in.

It came down to me and the Delhi-roadblock. It was their capital, so no bribing. My forces died a couple of noble deaths, with dips trying to knock down the walls of Jerricho, and dragoons bouncing off.

In short order, around 1580, I decided to screw my pacifist tendancies, and went fundie the turn I got tactics. Built hordes of dips and calvalry, and beat the pants off of gandhi!



Next were the french, then the persians, then the english, last the egyptians.

I set things up so that I'd show up by their continent with two transports (2 dips and 6 calvary on each), each transp. by a port city. I'd bribe the two ports, land the troops, and and take at least two other cities with the dips and cavalry.

This way, it would take, on average, two turns (first for landing and attack, second for mop up) to take any given continent.

The egyptians perished in 1760, just 180 years after the high priest started up da wompin'...

In hindsight, there is a lot that I would have done differently: going fundie sooner, acknowledging the other civs' existance before 1 AD, and a couple o' other dings...but t'was fun, and I'm going back to play more...

By the way-do I send the saved files for every ten years, or was it every twenty? Saved for both...

-KhanMan
"Sic semper pax mundis,
et sic transit bellum mundi ad infinitum
(quad erratta demonstrata

	02-03-2000 11:44									#41
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Landed AC in 1922. It would have been an easier game if I had realised there was a ready-made contact system with the other civs. By the time I’d discovered this I was “supreme” – so alliances were only offered (despite donating an Encarta of tech to Egypt) if I declared war on half the World: playing Republic, then Democracy, this seemed a poor option. Later in the game I was forced into war (gave me an excuse to build a few battleships!) but managed to avoid any serious assault on my home patch. (The Navy sank a few suspicious looking transports – one from Egypt stuffed with units – no I don’t think they were freights!)

The basic empire was four cities on the Zulu continent. Three more were situated on the island to the north, and a further three on the islands to the south-east. I held one city for a time on the Indian continent, until the French nuked me out. (Well it was BANGalore!) There was me thinking no Manhattan Project – no nukes - ahhhhhhh! In some ways the game was easier without the wonders, but I did miss Magellan’s, as caravan delivery seemed very slow!

The game was great fun. It was the first scenario I’ve tackled. Never played a green civ before – each time I looked at the map, I thought I’d been wiped out. Next time I will press all the buttons at 4000BC to make sure that mobile warfare doesn’t come with polytheism!
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SG (2)

	02-03-2000 18:02									#42
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I also didn't notice the contact with the other civs until I met the Indians

Also, I have put the saves I have recievd so far on my site. You can find them at http://home.planet.nl/~belt0018/chal0300.htm

Tom included a log with his saves; I have also put that on my site. I don't know if all the other players have kept logs; if you did please send them with the saves. Those of you who already sent me their saves can also mail me their logs. Text or html logs are preferred because you can just read those in your browser.

	03-03-2000 01:58									#43
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Alpha Centauri, 1947 -- One City.

Diety Level
"vik the Foolish"
Civilization score: 27
Civilization rating: 3%

This was extremely hard to try to do the OCC thing, but I tried it anyways.

I realized pretty quickly that all the grassland would make finding the 4-square special hard to find. But I guessed right the first time. Unfortunately, I had to put my single city in a land-locked square, but I hi-jacked a Trireme later.

I didn't know until after I started that there were no wonders. That REALLY hurts OCC-style of play.

I also didn't know we already had contact with everyone else. That also really hurst OCC-style.

I did do something some might consider cheating. After launching my SS in 1931, I played out the game only to witness the egyptians practically rush-buy a 39-8-8-1-1-1 SS and launch it. It was due to arrive in 1947 as my SS was, but when 1947 came around, it only acknowledged the Egyptians.

So I reloaded my 1931 game, launched the SS, and built a bunch of diplos to sabotage Egyptian production. It worked.

If we continue to do this sort of competition, I would suggest allowing the wonders, and playing a small map. That way, you will get a broader group of playing styles. As it is now, you're not getting the best effort. An OCCer is just as hampered by no wonders as the other extreme -- the ICSer. ICSers need Hanging Gardens as bad as us OCCers need Colossus.

Just a thought. It was still lots of fun as is.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by vik (edited March 02, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by vik (edited March 02, 2000).]

	03-03-2000 03:36									#44
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Vik - well done! Those were tough conditions for OCC.

I must disagree about the map. Next time I hope we have a large world, with wonders, so we have the option of ICS.
---------------
SG (2)

	03-03-2000 13:04									#45
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Vic-IMHO, what you did wasn't cheating, since both of your space ships landed the same year.

Although I have to disagree: this challenge was cool because there weren't any wonders. If you want a OCC challenge, why not try save-the-whales, or one of the millions of other ones.



-KhanMan
"Paidaskuneisin Dios Achilleus, auton te elisan!"

	03-03-2000 16:25									#46
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Vik - outstanding!! I would not have thought OCC was possible on that map particularly without wonders - But why did you feel that contact from the outset hurt you?

I have a nearly complete huge map challenge for you war-mongers - if I can get it done in the next couple of hours I will publish it here...

------------------
____________
Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	03-03-2000 18:39									#47
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

SG1 -- contact from the outset did *NOT* hurt me -- the fact that I didn't realize we had all the contacts until after 1 AD hurt me. It was my ignorance for not trying out the ole F3 key that really hurt. If I'd would have known from 4000bc that I had a chance to make alliances and ask for gifts at that early year, I could have gotten much more money and traded for early techs I needed.

KhanMan -- I re-read DaveV's post that began this thread. If DaveV's goal was to compare styles, letting players play any strategy they like, then it is my opinion that you really don't get an accurate comparison of the effectiveness of the OCC/ICS styles if you prohibit the wonders. That was the point of my earlier whining.

A "No Wonders" game is refreshing, but again, if the goal of this "competition" is to compare styles, the "No Wonders" game would lead to a flawed comparison.

	04-03-2000 04:00									#48
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As soon as I saw it was no wonders and contact from the start I decided to play conquest.

I killed each civ in turn, and ruled the world at 1320 AD. So do I win?

If I remember rightly I killed Indians, French, Persians, Egyptians then English, but I could have got the order mixed up.

This was a lot of fun to play, and I would have shaved quite a lot of turns off if I had got Navigation earlier, by treriemes took such a long time to get to the Persians, going all the way round the French.

Is this the best date so far? Anyway, I am just about to send the .savs to Paul now.

Graag

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Summon my Ukrainian antipope!

	04-03-2000 04:08									#49
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Further details on my strat:

I only ever used knights in this game. I build no other offensive units and no diplomats.
I built 4 cities on the rock and rush built barracks in each, then rushed a load of vet. knights and treriems and kicked the Indians.
I then simply repeated this startegy.
After I had chivalry I ignored science completely, maxing tax and lux to keep cities happy and have money to buy units and temples.

Graag



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Summon my Ukrainian antipope!

	04-03-2000 07:55									#50
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Vic-It would be interesting to do a totally even world for a general challenge: medium, mixed landmasses, no holds barred.

But I would also like to see some more no-wonders challenges. IMHO, that has the potential to be the next OCC...

I think most of us missed the contacts...I didn't realise we had contact until late in the game too...in fact, when I played again with the same strategy, at emperor instead of prince, and used the contacts, it mde up for the difference in diffulty...

With all that said, I'm impressed that it was even possible to do OCC without Collosus and Copernicus'...let alone on no-wonders!

-KhanMan

	05-03-2000 05:23									#51
	Remove this text

Graag - you certainly beat me - I won in AD 1480. Like so many others, I didn't realize I had contact with everyone until about AD 400 (I've said before I'm not a scenario expert). I played a pure ICS game, building (or conquering) about 60 cities and hiring Elvis to keep order. I played a similar strategy to Graag's on tech research, except I went for Monotheism and built zillions of crusaders, then turned tech down to 30%. In retrospect, I built too many crusaders and not enough triremes. Probably more cities than I really needed, too.

	05-03-2000 07:21									#52
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I quickly had way too mnay cities. After a certain point every new city I build was so unhappy it needed a temple and two units to be happy at size 1, so I think I built too many cities as some just wasted money.

Anyone else have this problem?

Graag

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Summon my Ukrainian antipope!

	05-03-2000 08:11									#53
	Put an end to popups!

Quick question for anyone: what exactly does ICS strategy stand for?

Is it the same as basic war-mongering?

-KM
"Ie Jesu pro Temporae, sic semper Spiritus Dominae"

	06-03-2000 01:05									#54
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Aw, gee, I quit. Total conquest by 1320?? Good job, Graag. Going directly at Chivalry to build vet Knights and then using them to conquer is a great strategy. I'm just beginning to learn about early conquest and this was a good lesson.

I downloaded Graag's game just to see how he was able to conquer so early. I think I hit upon a difference: We both started at the Indians at roughly the same time, however, it appears the Indians were more numerous and larger in my MGE game (as oppose to his 2.42). My problem was that I didn't throw enough units at them at one time.

One other thing, perhaps the biggest difference. By 2000bc, Graag had 13 techs, I only had 4. Didn't do the emissary thing until too late.
[This message has been edited by Steve Clark (edited March 05, 2000).]

	06-03-2000 05:23									#55
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Steve, I purposely played it on normal 2.42 not MGE bcause I knew the AIs would be easier to handle. And yeah I traded tech from the start. I also gave away a lot of tech to get maps, this is a good trick. Whenever you think you have enough power to wipe out a civ give them whatever they want to trade maps. For instance after breaking my cease fire with the English a couple of times to take cities I could see they weren't happy. I gave them 300 gold and most of my techs, they traded maps and a few turns later they didn't exist.

But I'm sure playing MGE and not knowing that you start with contact has a huge effect on your game, when did you win Steve? Next time use 2.42, I'm certain it shaved a thousand years or so off my conquest time.

Graag

------------------
"I have discovered that China and Spain are really one and the same country, and it's only ignorance that leads people to believe they are two seperate nations. If you don't belive me try writing 'Spain' and you'll end up writing 'China'."
-Gogol, Diary of a Madman

	09-03-2000 20:21									#56
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Well, Khan Man, to be honest, I was hoping someone else would take your question about ICS. ICS is a very powerful playing system that can quickly wipe out AIs and MPs alike.

ICS is the near total opposite of OCC. Instead of "One City" you have "Infinite Cities" hence "ICS." The "S" in ICS stands for either "strategy" or "sleaze" depending on who you ask.

ICS is not as refined as OCC as far as a tech path goes. There is even a lot of opinion as to which wonders to build. I was hoping to get this refined and defined when I started the thread "Melancholy and ICS," now in the archives.

The general gist of ICS is this: you build one city as your Super Science City -- generally your capital. This is the only city that you really manage. You take the other settler and build another city. That city builds a warrior (or some other defense) and another settler, which forms another city. Basically, all your cities build another settler to go and form another city. All these other cities should not grow beyond size one or two. By keeping the city size down, you are able to put these cities one square away from each other. All these city squares generate a trade arrow or two, which, along with your "SCC," generate a lot of science.

But you drop your science production at a certain point.

One of the main themes is the race to discover democracy, allowing you to build Statue of Liberty and then switch to Commie or Fundy g'ments -- these are the best ICS g'ments because you can more easily control happiness (you will have 40-60-80-etc cities by the time you get democracy).

Other wonders that benefit ICS play:

HG -- helps happiness pre-SOL, probably a "must have"
GW -- city walls for all your 1-banger cities
JSB -- helps happiness
MC -- called a "must have" happiness wonder
SOL -- "must have" allowing g'ment change
SZWA -- quick vets
LW -- upgrades your units
GL -- to keep up with early tech

Now, imagine all these 40-80-120 cities of yours each building a cheap horseman or two. With SZWA and LW and a switch to fundy g'ment, you will have one heck of an army once you learn about Cavalry.

Additionally, all these cities could build a caravan or two. Along with helping your rate of science advance, you can easily rush-build any wonder you please.

The quick science rate you gain by all the caravans pretty much eliminates the need for Cop's Ob or I.N.C in your SCC.


I hope I've explained it well, but please anyone feel free to comment or add to it.

	09-03-2000 20:50									#57
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Vik - nice writeup, but I have to chime in with my opinions. As you said, there's no agreed-upon best strategy for ICS, so this is strictly my viewpoint.

The strength of ICS is that each city works n+1 squares, where n is the city's population. So 10 size 1 cities can work 20 squares, while 2 size 5 cities can only work 12 squares. Additionally, you need to build improvements to support large cities, while small ones can be kept happy with wonders or Elvis.

I never build a science city in ICS. My goal is to reach a tech level where I can build a good attacking unit, then build dozens of that unit and wipe out the opposition. I build a few caravans for wonders, but none for trading (no point in setting up a trade route between two size 2 cities).

	10-03-2000 04:48									#58
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Dave V - I agree with your general strategy about ICS, but why don't you have the SSC?

When possible, I re-allocate a few caravans (for demanded goods) to the the SSC and send them overseas for the big trade bonus. Sure, some would say that was a cheat!
----------
SG (2)

	10-03-2000 07:19									#59
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Zulus, deity level, 4 cities, space race, version 2.42.

Just launched my 15-3-3-1-1-1 ship in 1895 AD, estimated arrival is 1910. Haven't finished yet so 1910 is not official.

Doesn't really matter because I, erhm..., reloaded once , so it's not a clean win anyway. I was very sleepy (Zzzzzzzz...) last night, didn't pay attention to the game and all of a sudden I was in anarchy... Yep, government collapse...

It's past 3 AM here, just some short info.

Quickly realised I was on an island, but didn't realise nearly as quick I "had" Marco Polo's from the start (not until probably well past 1 AD). Missed one of the whales. Had two alliances (Egyptians and Indians), but couldn't squeeze much gold out of them.

Saved regularly in the beginning, but quickly forgot about the "twenty turns rule". Continued to save throughout the game, but at random intervals.

As I said above, it's not over yet and I reloaded once...

"Let him who is without sin throw the first stone..."

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited March 09, 2000).]

	10-03-2000 18:19									#60
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SG1 - I don't build a science city because I don't think the (huge) investment of resources is worth it. Give me more cities instead of the research wonders (or improvements), and I'll match your research rate for a while. By the time the SSC starts to kick in, I've discovered enough good military techs to go on the rampage, and I'm ready to turn off my science.

CR - maybe this is common knowledge, but the "contact from start" aspect of this game appears to be due to the Romans having built the UN before their untimely demise. Apparently the UN gives *all* civs (not just the builder) contact with all other civs.

As for throwing the first stone - well, my arm is kind of sore today, and the sun is kind of in my eyes...