25-02-2000 18:01									#1
	Play from the same start position, compare results Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Seeing the OCC log threads makes me nostalgic for some comparison games I played back in the good old days. I don't much enjoy playing OCC, so I'd like to have a comparison game without the OCC restrictions. I was hoping the Apolyton tournament game would step into the breach, but nothing appears to be happening on that front.

Here's what I propose: I will generate a scenario game, which I will email to anyone who requests it. Everyone plays the game, keeping a log and saving every 20 turns. We can compare notes just like the OCC threads. You can play any strategy you like: OCC, spaceship, conquest. All participants are honor bound not to use cheap tricks like reloading huts - it's not a contest, but a comparison of civ styles.

If anyone would like to volunteer a web site for posting the starting game and peoples' final results, that would make things a lot easier. If not, I've done this via email in the past.

If you want to participate, email me (my address is in my profile) or post here. I'll be on a business trip next week, so I may not be checking in until March 6 if I can't connect to the internet from my hotel room.

	25-02-2000 18:43									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This idea sounds good. It would be nice to be able to compare how well people did with different playing stiles like OCC, spaceship or conquest. In my own experience I often find that I can get to AC faster with only one city than with multiple cities; this would be a nice way to find out if OCC is really faster or that my playing stile is just better suited for OCC.

Anyway, if you need webspace I could put the game on my site. When you talk about posting the results on the website do you mean only people's logs or also the saves of the 20-turn intervals?

	25-02-2000 19:01									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm in!

Carolus

	25-02-2000 19:08									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Paul - thanks for the offer. I would like everyone to post a zip of their save files - it's the old "a picture is worth a thousand words" story. If you don't have the space for that, we can always go back to email. As far as posting log files, it would probably be just as easy to post them here (and use Gamestat's server space instead of yours).

By the way, the first game I'm planning would be extremely difficult for OCC - a medium map, no wonders (except Apollo), no huts, no barbs.

	25-02-2000 21:37									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Count me in, Dave. Sounds like great fun.

	25-02-2000 21:49									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Depending on the time frame, I'm in as well. What about version? I only have MGE.

	25-02-2000 21:53									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Great idea! A good alternative for those of us not hooked on OCC. I'm in.
----------
SG (2)

	25-02-2000 23:15									#8
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If the map is saved as a scenario in v2.42 then most modern versions will work - Civ2 w/ patch, CiC, FW, MGE/UCC.
ToT won't work IIRC. That way too, then everyone should be able to choose their civ and level.

	26-02-2000 00:04									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You can download it zipped or unzipped. Dave told me that he played as the Zulus.

	26-02-2000 00:06									#10
	Inflate your Upload Space

And by the way; putting all those zipped saves on my site won't be a problem unless there are a lot more players than I am expecting.

	26-02-2000 00:13									#11
	Tired of ads?

SS - that's exactly what I did! Anyone with 2.42 through MGE should be able to play. If someone plays with some version higher than 2.42, people with an earlier version won't be able to read his save files.

I emailed the file to Paul for him to post - I wanted to check it out a little further to make sure nothing strange happened, but I'll bow to the current enthusiasm.

Notes: it's a randomly generated medium map (50x80), standard rules and units, except:
- No goody huts
- No barbarians
- Eliminated civs do not restart

Somehow the Romans managed to build all of the wonders except for Apollo; then they mysteriously vanished from the face of the planet. It's left as a battle between you and five AIs. I suggest we all play as the Zulus; any other civ will have a different start position, invalidating the comparison to some extent. Play any difficulty level you like - this should be a somewhat challenging game. In our final reports, we should note what version of civ software we were using, and our difficulty level in the game.

Strange note: the Romans started, off the bat, in a 4-special sweet spot, on a river! Too bad they frittered it away...

	26-02-2000 01:08									#12
	Tired of ads?

That was quick. Can we play any civ and level then or should we all play using the same ground rules?

Sorry...looks like you beat me to my post. Thanks for the info, Dave.
[This message has been edited by Bohlen (edited February 25, 2000).]

	26-02-2000 01:10									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

By the way, for those who don't know the exact years/turn numbers: if you want to save every 20 turns you should save in these years (on deity): -3000, -2000, -1000, -500, 1, 400, 800, 1200, 1550, 1750, 1790, 1830, 1860. After that turns go in one year intervals so you can just add 20 to the year.

	26-02-2000 04:00									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i am in as well..... when isthis up and running

	26-02-2000 04:00									#15
	Suffering from ads?

No ToT?
DaveV, you just sold me MGE, I planned to get it next month but hey...

	26-02-2000 04:19									#16
	Suffering from ads?

War4ever, it's already up and running. Check my earlier post for a download link.

	26-02-2000 21:45									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

This is going to be too cool. And thanks, Paul, for the unzipped version. For some reason, I haven't gotten my butt in gear to get pkzip/pkunzip loaded on my PC.

One question, though. How do I set the level? Isn't that already decided? Did I understand it to be deity?

Anyway, in for a penny, in for a pound. I'm off to conquer the world.

------------------
Frodo lives!

Better dead than "Red"... or green... or blue... or yellow... or orange... or purple... or white.

	27-02-2000 07:38									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I have tried the downloaded civ2 file and tonight got to 1750AD.

I played the Zulus. I am tons ahead on the powergraph but *every* ai civ is allied against me!! (and I attacked nobody!!!)

A war on every front - North - South - East - and if someone was west of me I'm sure they would have attacked me too!!

Who is comparing the savings?!? Can you tell me where I'm going wrong???

Eddy (at least in MPE everyone isn't allied against you!) (maybe half!!)

	27-02-2000 21:09									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm a newby as far as playing games from the net. What do I need to do?

I tried:
Downloaded the scn file from Paul's URL (unzipped version).
Put in a directory called "challenge" in the Scenario directory.
Clicked on it in scenario mode.
Got Windows "Illegal operation" right off.

I play MGE with what I think is the one major patch that I downloaded from Apolyton. Are there other patches I need?
Thanks!

	28-02-2000 00:53									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

CC - put the unzipped file into your install directory, not a scenario subdirectory. The install directory should be \mps\civ2 for version 2.42, and \Program Files\MicroProse Software\Civilization II Multiplayer Gold Edition for MGE. I don't know about other versions. When you fire up the game, select "load scenario" and select the chal0300.scn file.

	28-02-2000 10:23									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Count me in...

I'm downloading it now, will have results and saves later...

BTW-who do we email the saves to?

-KhanMan

	28-02-2000 12:44									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Since they are going to be available on my website I suppose you should mail them to me. But please zip them; I don't look forward to receiving a bunch of unzipped saves.

	28-02-2000 15:14									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I didn't keep a log or saves but I won by SS in 1932.I played on deity and took the Zulus.I built 3 cities on that Zulu rock in a perfectionist fashion,built many freights/caravans and used the "contact from start" to get a fair amount of tech and 2 gamelong alliances which paid well.I mined a silk forest and a pheasant near the start and managed just under 900 beakers between the 3 coastal cities at max science after research labs,superhighways,universities etc.

sold sewers and aquaducts at sizes 30,26 and 21

It was alot of fun playing without wonders also.


[This message has been edited by Smash (edited February 28, 2000).]

	28-02-2000 20:38									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

I have started the game. My usual strategy builds many wonders, so this will be different for me. As a suggestion, at the start, change the leader name to your user id. This will make the save names different for all. It will be easier to load saved games and compare them.

	28-02-2000 20:55									#25
	Tired of ads?

I actually did get around to start playing. Since I had never played without Wonders, I had no idea what to do at first.

Well, after building a few temples, several barracks and exchanging boat loads of techs with the English and Persians, I went after the Indians with vet Legions and Knights (they wouldn't trade with me, so I clobbered them). It took awhile, but I captured or destroyed all 8 of their cities. I have now started to clobber the English with Knights and had the French start a war with the Persians. The Egyptians have 3 of the 5 largest cities, so they're going have to wait until I clobber them with Cruise Missiles and Alpines.

My overall strategy, as always, is to hit them hard when I am stronger. I go for peace in all cases upon initial contact, just to get techs and then when I'm at their door, demand tribute and they say, 'prepare for war' and I say, 'already prepared'.

So far, I found this scenario to be illuminating - I can stick with my regular clobbering strategy even without wonders! Makes me think that wonders are just convenient luxuries and not necessities. Go figure.

I will send my saved files all zipped up to Paul.

	29-02-2000 10:41									#26
	Suffering from ads?

Ok boys,
Downloaded the zipped version and will give it a shot. I'll probably play at King or prince...I get wrecked at Diety and Emporer.
I've never done comparisosns, so what should I log? All techs, or city improvements? Every turn or just every 20?
Depending on how complecated this is I may not send all my stuff, but I'll post how I did and such.
Fill me in on the specifics of the log, and I'm ready to go.
Thanks

	29-02-2000 10:44									#27
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Is peeking or restarting ok? I know it's from the same start position... but you know if battles are lost and such.

	28-02-2000 23:19									#28
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

no peeking or restarting or you will be shot by the Apolyton executioner


hydro plants-the civlopedia says they are built where running water is located.I assume this means they are only available in cities with rivers and perhaps adjacent to mountains.I couldn't build them either so I went for mass transit and recycling.Could also have done the OCC thing and had 2 engineers for each city.Easy for my game with 3 cities but not so easy for someone who builds many cities or conquers a bunch of ai cities.



[This message has been edited by Smash (edited February 28, 2000).]

	29-02-2000 04:41									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Thanks Smash - I will try a city on a river if I have one!
--------
SG (2)

	29-02-2000 09:52									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Finally finished this game!

1918 the Zulus finished it off fundy. First time I have used a fundamentalist governement. Unlike Smash, I made 5 cities on the Rock of Shaka and then expanded. I got really tired of the Senate and executed the upstart dove leaders and went on howitzer rampage.

Geesh, I'm very happy playing without wonders. I saw Steves comments and I agree. Maybe wonders are overrated.

I tried to keep a log, but MS word ate it up when I hit some keystrokes...drives me nuts. I did some saves early on but I'll just be content to chat about the game. Definately fun playing a regular game in a comparison format....hope to do better with the log and saves next time.

AU

Diety/V2.42/5 cities on the rock and War against the world--a very hostile world.