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Campo
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Buffalo, NY, USA
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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I've finally gotten to the point where I can win easily at King level, thanks to advice gleaned here. So now I'm into my first competitive Emperor game. (I had tried it a couple months ago and got clobbered.)
I'm holding my own so far. I have a dozen cities, all with marketplaces and not much else. I've built Colossus & Copernicus in my science city, and the Great Wall elsewhere. I lost out on the Pyramids and Marco Polo. I'm racing an AI civ to Michaelangelo's, and I've just started Leonardo's.
From what I can tell by contacts, I think I'm first or a close second in techs.
So here's my problem: food. The region I'm in has a good amount of specials for production and trade, but altogether too many hills and mountains. Most of my cities are producing either no surplus or only one surplus food. I only have two cities with more than that, and they're both supporting settlers.
My science city has a granary but no surplus food. It was my first city -- 4 specials, so I figured I'd use food caravans to grow it. I thought I'd develop other cities with enough surplus food, but it hasn't worked out. I'm hemmed in by four AI civs, so I can't keep expanding unless I go for conquest (which would be risky at this point because we're about even in military techs).
How do I grow my population at a decent rate? My only idea is to put a settler on a trireme and found a city on a different continent (with better food terrain), then expand there and start sending food caravans back to my "home" region. That would work, but it would be a very slow process.
Any other ideas? Thanks.
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Start clearing the trees! Or, start a city somewhere with good food production and start shipping those food caravans into the cities that need it.
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Campo
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Buffalo, NY, USA
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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Unfortunately my problem terrain is mostly hills, with some mountains and a little tundra. My science city, for example, has one whale and three other ocean squares, one grassland, two mountains, one tundra, and the rest hills. (The other specials are gold, coal, and iron.) There's an excess of hills everywhere in my territory.
I knew growth would be a problem, but I was counting on surplus food from other cities. Unfortunately the hills curtail my food surplus almost everywhere. I'd be okay if there were more forest.
I don't have explosives yet, so my settlers are limited in their transformation ability. By the time I get engineers I'll have lost a lot of growth time, plus I'll sacrifice population producing enough engineers to terraform on a large scale.
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My Wife Hates CIV
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Michigan
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Harbor improvement.
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inca911
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St. Paul, MN
Jan 2000
time: 05:12
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By the way, you mentioned that you had a granary in at least one of your cities. I prefer to use WLT*D (We love the leader day) to boost population instead of using granaries. You likely have Republic already, so don't bother with the granaries unless you want to use the food caravan cheat to grow your science city unnaturally large.
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Campo
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Buffalo, NY, USA
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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I built the granary only in the science city, because I wanted to get faster growth early on before I could get the "love" days. It was obvious from the beginning that it wasn't a good food-producing site, but I couldn't resist an early start on four specials.
Should I direct my tech research to explosives so I can get engineers? I've been researching my usual tech path so I can pursue my key wonders (Copernicus, Michaelangelo, Leonardo, Bach, Adam Smith), plus Gunpowder, of course. I usually follow those paths and get Explosives as a later by-product. I could make it a priority, though I'm afraid that might cost me Bach or Smith, depending on what the AI's do. Is it worth the risk?
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Sieve Too
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New Hampshire, USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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You need Engineers for terrain improvement ASAP. It may be better to pass on JSB (your cities are going to be small for quite some time so you shouldn't need it) and concentrate on Leo's Shop for the upgrade.
If the terrain is really that bad, you should go for the NON Engineer trick: Build an Engineer and march it into the hills such that it is closer to an AI city than to any of yours. Build city. Start Building an Engineer. Wait a turn. Buy the Engineer. It will be NON supported, costing you no food. Repeat. This trick works best in rough terrain since it prevents an unseen AI Horseman or Diplomat from marching into your empty city. An Explorer could theoretically take your city but the AI typically uses Explorers for exploration, not for patrolling.
Unfortunately, building Engineers costs you a citizen each time but after you have enough irrigated, roaded grassland you can make it up quickly with WLT_D.
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Sieve Too
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New Hampshire, USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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Yes, building the Engineer will disband the city.
Forgot to mention that you don't have to wait for Engineers to start this. You can do the same thing with Settlers. Just make sure you get Leo so that your NON Settlers will turn into NON Engineers.
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inca911
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St. Paul, MN
Jan 2000
time: 05:12
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I'm glad you were able to bribe/conquer a good food city from the AI. That should open things up a bit.
Be sure you have your 3 good trade routes for your Science City or you are short-changing the potential of the city. Remember that the caravans give gold bonus and an equivalent amount of science beakers when they establish a trade route. Some people on this board use caravans exclusively to get science advances and an advance per every one or two turns is not uncommon even with the science rate set to zero (especially after superhighways, Democracy, and airports).
Also, if your situation looks like you may be conquering many size 8-12 cities to add to your 14 or so cities you already have, I'd rush to get Bach's over Adam Smith's (start Adam Smith's and swap wonder production once you have Theology). Trade/Steal tech to get Theology if you have to, but you have Mike's so all you need is Feudalism which should be easy to trade for. Gold really shouldn't be an issue at this stage of the game, and the extra population you can support with Bach's will outweigh the support of your 1 gold cost city improvements. I think of it this way. Bach's will allow you to grow two more citizens in each city. Most cities will have two one gold maintenance cost improvements: Temple and Marketplace. So you are saving 2 gold in that city by having Adam Smiths. If you just turned one of your extra Bach citizens into a taxpayer (so he's generating 3 gold), then you are already exceeding what you can get from Adam Smiths. With lots of trade routes and gold bonuses via caravans, Adam Smith's is really a luxury wonder and should never take a back seat to getting Bach's.
Keep us updated! It's fun to hear how your game is progressing!
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Sieve Too
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New Hampshire, USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:12
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NeilFaiman: To get rid of a "bad" route, just establish a new one. Although the game occasionally goofs, it usually gets rid of your worst route if the new one would be better.
Campo: Re Adam Smith vs. JSB: Both are excellent, however I am guessing that you ARE having gold problems and since your biggest city is (or was) size 7, you just don't need JSB right now. On the other hand, Adam Smith will allow you to increase your science rate immediately so that you can get Engineers sooner.
One other point: Theology is one of the lowest priority techs for the AI so even if you pass by JSB at this moment, you may still be the only contender for it later on. That isn't true for Adam Smith, which the AI avidly strives for.
All IMHO of course. YMMV.
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Carolus Rex
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Sweden
Jan 1970
time: 06:12
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Fun to read about how the game is progressing.
Just wondering about the NONE engineer/settler: is it not better to use already existing settlers first than to build new ones? Food is instantly "freed up" in the city previously supporting it and you get your NONE settler faster.
Carolus
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poppawoppa
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Chico, CA USA
Jan 1970
time: 21:12
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Regarding building Adam Smith or JSB, and having only the techs needed to get Adam S.
I have often begun building a (future) Wonder by starting on the wonder now available. Then even after I finish that wonder in one city, I allow the other city to continue to build the SAME wonder, piling up the shields until I discover the tech needed to open up the building of the wonder I couldn't build earlier. That way as soon as the tech is there, I quickly can switch to the newly available wonder, and it is done in a few more turns, or I have enough money to rush build it. This strategy is used by many, I think, and I seem to find it works best if the wonder i can build is for less shields than the one I am waiting to build. Like if I start on King Richards Crusade, 300 shields and then when I get invention, and can do Leonardo's Workshop, I have sometimes had over 300 shields ready to transfer into production of the Workshop (400 shields).
Good Luck.
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Campo
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Buffalo, NY, USA
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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There's good news and bad news on my game progress. I'll split them into two posts so it won't be one really long one.
First, the bad news: I made a strategic error that I think would have cost me the game. There were five AI civs. The strongest and most distant was the Aztecs. They beat me to Magellan's and SOL. (I did get both Adam's and Bach's.) They were a little behind me in techs. Then their diplomats stole two techs from my cities, so I declared war. I decided to go after their capitol, to cut out their heart and capture SOL. I switched to military production, built an army of 10 cannons, 4 riflemen, and 4 cavalry. I built the riflemen first and sent them ahead to block reinforcements. The rest of the army followed, along with two settlers to built a fort and two diplomats to investigate. All had to be transported by caravel, because the Babylonians were between me and the Aztec's.
I built the fort and got everyone in place, then sent a diplomat to investigate the defenses. I had expected city walls and 3-5 musketeers. Instead there were 8 musketeers behind city walls, on a river. I didn't like the odds so built 4 more cannons and sent them off. The the Aztecs got Ironclads and sunk all my caravels, with cannons aboard.
It was a battle I didn't think I could win. By now I had sacrified science progress for military. My army was stranded on foreign shores with no hope of quick reinforcement and little chance of victory. And I was annoyed with the Aztecs and myself.
I launched a suicidal attack. It failed. My entire army was destroyed and the Aztec capital barely dented. My civ was in shambles. I was depressed. I gave up. That's the bad news.
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Campo
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Buffalo, NY, USA
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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Now for the good, or at least better, news.
Although I lost (or think I would have lost) that game, I felt that I could have won it if I hadn't launched the misguided invasion. So I went back to a saved game from earlier on. I didn't have one from right before the invasion, so I had to go back a ways.
I proceeded as I had before, up to the point where I went militaristic. I got Adam's and Bach's again, plus for some reason the Aztecs were later starting SOL, so I got that too. I stayed focused on science progress and expansion longer than in my first attempt.
Eventually, of course, as I got more advanced and larger the other civs allied against me and all declared war. Instead of repeating my misguided attempt to capture the remote Aztec capital, I followed a two-pronged strategy. First, I attacked the Persians, the strongest nearby civ. Second, with the money I built up from Adam Smith's and a later military venture, I sent diplomats and later spies to bribe Aztec cities.
Both approaches worked but were slow. All civs were attacking my border cities so I had to tend to defense. The Persians were strongly entrenched, so I had to besiege their capital by occupying city squares. Eventually it got small enough to capture. I bribed a few Aztec cities, but it was expensive as they were large and close to the capital, so it was costing 1000+ gold each.
So now I'm winning this game. (I realize that I really lost it initially, but I'm winning the replay. I didn't take advantage of map knowledge, so my biggest "cheat" was that I knew the Aztec capital was too well defended to capture.)
Here's the current status:
Year: 1922
Me (English):
25 cities - average size about 8.
Science city - Pop 13, prod 17, sci 176
(Since I've been fighting I haven't been able to go democratic to grow it with "love" days.)
Government - Communism
Wonders: Mike's, Leo's (still active), Bach's, SOL, Adam Smith, science, Women's Suff, and working on UN (racing Aztecs to keep it from them).
Researching Tactics.
Aztecs:
3 cities
1144 gold
Can't recall gov't - they just changed)
Researching Corp.
Babylonians:
2 cities, both size 8
Democracy
1055 gold
Researching Leadership
Persians:
4 cities
Democracy
1393 gold
Researching Corp
No capital
French:
4 cities, sizes 6 - 12
No other info -- I don't have embassy. They're behind the Persians.
Russians:
1 city. My only current peace agreement.
So where do I go from here? Obviously I'm far and away the great power, both militarily and scientifically. It's getting late though -- less than 100 years to go.
Do I pull back my offensive and focus on defense and spaceship? Should I stay on the attack and go for conquest? Now that I have espionage, I can build an army of spies to tear down city walls; that would greatly speed up my so-far slow conquests. I can't do much bribing because they're mostly in Democracy.
I'm open to suggestion, both for the general approach and any specific recommendations.
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Campo
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Buffalo, NY, USA
Oct 1999
time: 00:12
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quote:
<font size=1>Originally posted by Huey on 03-13-2000 12:09 PM</font>
...try to take out an AI in one turn, if possible. IMO you should have done that the moment you decided to take on the Aztecs...
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But how? I didn't have Espionage, so I couldn't direct my diplos to go after city walls. My experience is that, behind walls and on a river, it could take 4-8 cannon to wipe out each musketeer defender. With 8 defenders that would have been 50 cannons for just one AI city.
Take away the walls and it's a different story. How that would take a lot of diplos.
BTW, what's the advantage of doing it in one turn? I realize my many-turns technique is way too slow, but is there any advantage in doing it in one turn as opposed to, say, three?
[This message has been edited by Campo (edited March 13, 2000).]
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07-03-2000 18:09
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