23-03-2000 04:52									#1
	Stopping the cheapness! Inciting revolts Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hi all... I'm new to this board. But I was wondering if anybody has any good tips on stopping a diplo take-over. What my friend likes to do, is buy all my cities when we're both early in the game (before spies)using diplo's.

There's not much I can do because he doesn't care much about the qualitiy of his own cities or his research rate. All he does is steal and bribe the crap out of my civ. What can I do to stop this? Other than go into democracy. (Which is often too late, by then he's stolen 4-5 of my cities already)

Any help will be much appreciated!

Thanks!



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	23-03-2000 05:32									#2
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1. I believe the magical number of gold is like 550 and the prices to buy your cities double.
2. Courthouses in each city make the price of bribing double
3. Also having a diplomat fortified in your city makes the price go up.
4. Democracy makes cities impossible to bribe, however, watch out for destroyed temples that can throw you into disorder and revolution!

If I am in err someone please tell me but these things seem to work for me.. unless I am playing Markus

	23-03-2000 06:19									#3
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How does having 550 gold do anything? Does it mean that if I have 550 gold, it costs a lot more to bribe a city?

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	23-03-2000 06:45									#4
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I still say the best defense is to keep the diplos away from your cities. How? I guess a lot depends on where you build your cities. I play MP with a small few from work only now... what I do works well against them. I try and build my cities within low movement terrain (woods, hills, mountains). Keep a watch on the one or two roads leaving the city and diplos will have a hard time getting to them. Also, after having played Ming, Rah and Xin (their type), I've given up on the science path as far as happy wonders go. Chances are someone will have better land than me. Now, I go for the military techs and wonders. Catapults will destroy most anything (thats not fortified) until riflemen as long as it's not on a mountain. So a couple, maybe 3, vet catapults can protect a city very well. Coastal cities are another problem as far as keeping diplos out. But hey, who needs them. With all the vet ironclads floating around they dont last long anyway.

	23-03-2000 07:07									#5
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Remember that it only costs 50% of normal to bribe back a city you used to own.

	23-03-2000 08:02									#6
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a diplomat seems to stand a better chance at thwarting if they are in "sleep" mode.Don't think this effects inciting revolts though.

Build your treasury up as much as possible and as geofelt hinted,have your own dips ready to buy back the cities at half price.This will defeat the bribing tactic by attrition.

better yet do as MWHC suggests and head them off.Watch the seas

There seems to be 4 main factors which determine the cost
1.Government type
2.Treasury level(the more gold you have the more your city will cost)
3.proximity to capitol
4-presence of courthouse
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited March 22, 2000).]

	23-03-2000 08:37									#7
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let's say "BadGuy" bribes one of "Brainy"'s cities. You say if Brainy buys it back, it will be at 50% of the normal cost to bribe it.

Does that mean if BadGuy later tries to bribe that same city again, will it cost BadGuy 50% of what it would normally cost HIM, since he also previously owned it?

just curious. thanks

	23-03-2000 08:49									#8
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Thanks for the help guys... But honestly, there's something here that none of you have pointed out. And perhaps you guys can clarify...

If it cost me 50% of what it cost my opponent to buy. Would it be 50% of my cost for him to buy it a third time?

Also, I like to play the tech lead style of game, which means that I'm usually in the lead for tech. With inciting revolts, they get a tech when subverting my city. And that's what boils me up!

Also, coastal cities are particularly vulnerable. Land a few dips near a coastal city, boom it's gone. I have had an entire side of my country subverted this way which of course makes that ocean unprotected and cuts down my ship-making ability...

One final thing... will more dips in a city make it more expensive to subvert that city?

	23-03-2000 11:00									#9
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hmmm...not 100% percent sure but I think there is a turn limit on the 50% cost.Might even be 1 turn.Even if "badguy" rebought the city,it would still cost him more than the noble "Brainy"..so Brainy wins the attrition war.I suggest doing the same thing back.After awhile of this type of game you will begin to see why most play no city bribe games now.Its gets a little boring

	23-03-2000 12:03									#10
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Smash hit the nail right on the head...... play no city bribe..... dips wars are an easy tactic against the ai but in MP they just downright suck and bore the hell out of the game......

Either no city bribe or a max say of five cities this would allow someone to bribe a choke point in an empire which seems realistic to me..... then again maybe not

Personally i prefer no city bribe , this way i dont have to build courthouses lol

seriously though..... most of the people i know and play prefer the no city bribe thing....

Maybe in civ 3 they will not allow city bribing period which seems unrealistic, at least with the current model... or perhaps they will not allow dips , and only spys to do it.....

Still i think that many people would prefer to fight the ai without city bribe.... would make it only slightly harder in reality but then slightly harder ai at this point is what i am looking for when i dont have time to MP

	23-03-2000 14:13									#11
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Hey War-
Nice to hear that our little game of ring-around-the-mountain-stronghold didn't shake your enjoyment of non-bribing games...



As for the whole bribing thing, I prefer to go the expansionist route: build cities constantly, and it doesn't really matter if he bribes one or two...

-KhanMan the ever paranoid lord of triemere-bribing...

	23-03-2000 16:06									#12
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According to Xin on another thread - and I have yet to find him in error! The 50% going price applies only to the FOUNDER of the city.

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"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

	23-03-2000 16:27									#13
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There is some numerical data with regard to the cost of bribing cities here. It looks about right in my experience, but I cannot vouch for it.
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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor

Sorry, guys - link now fixed
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited March 24, 2000).]

	23-03-2000 17:11									#14
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Thanks SG... But that link was a bad one, if you have the data yourself... Can you send it to me thru email?

I guess the real way to "incubate" a city is to try to surround the vulnerable terrain (ie. terrain that allows easy movement for dips and spies) with defensive units either stacked or in fortresses, until that city has courthouse, and is big enuff to be too expensive to bribe.

Another question... when we get into spies... how many should i fortify in one city to prevent or reasonably cut down probability of stealing/sabotaging?

	23-03-2000 17:27									#15
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A fortified spy in a city will sometimes prevent theft of a tech, sometimes not. And if it does stop the theft, it might only be on one occasion. In other words, next time around, the theft could succeed. Problem is, it seems to vary a lot.

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	23-03-2000 18:05									#16
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The factors that control how expensive your cities are to bribe:

Distance from capital
Your cash
Size of city
Courthouse in city (reduces distance to capital)
City in revolt (half price)

So, build big cities, with courthouses, close to your capital and keep lots of cash on hand to discourage bribery. City walls might help, too, else the briber can reduce the population in the city by killing your defenders.

People rarely talk about the city size factor, but it's as important as any other. If you can WLY up to size 8 early, it should put the price out of your opponent's reach.

	23-03-2000 18:50									#17
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Does a city with a wonder (not an expired one) add to the cost of bribery?

Brainy - Follow the above advice - loads of gold and spies. (Fundamentalism is good for generating cash, and keep the caravans trading) Then go shopping yourself, and bribe a few of his cities! Attack is very often the best form of defence.
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SG (2)

	23-03-2000 21:25									#19
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I usually go further with an 'offensive' defense - ring your territory with fortified Diplomats/Spies and bribe anything that moves your way, especially enemy dips/spies.

	23-03-2000 21:40									#20
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Steve Clark - two problems with that approach: it's ineffective against a stack of more than one unit, and can't protect your coastal cities. A boat can unload a diplomat directly into a city, so he doesn't even need a landing square.

I should, though, have mentioned above that taking one of your opponent's cities by convential means is just as effective as bribing (and usually more cost-effective). In fact, the ideal outcome might just be to remove the city from the map (kill defenders until the city drops to size 1, then attack again). That way, you don't need to worry about it being bribed back.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited March 23, 2000).]

	23-03-2000 23:23									#21
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i agree that destroying cities is sometimes the best option..... especially if its a city that has the potential to wreak havoc on your civ.......

While many may say that bribing the city to be one of yours is better, ie you get the city intact, you then risk the problem of the other player rebribing the city at half cost, thus losing tech at the same time.....

sometimes its good to flatten small cities to rubble especially in the mid to late game where a size two or three city isnt' all that important at this point in the game.

However early on , any additional city could be a benefit as you take it away from someone and add it to your own collection thus making it almost twice as valuable to take intact.

This is especially important with coastal cities for establishing a stronghold and for removing his potential navy.

But personally i never bribe cities unless i have the means to back it up and this usually requires a decent size invasion force.... which often means i am going for the kill anywasy

	24-03-2000 01:10									#22
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Brainy & SG - I just tried my short-cut and it worked...
http://ltswww.epfl.ch/~winkler/civ2.html

?? does that work ??

	24-03-2000 02:31									#23
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My invasion force always includes dips and spies. I tend to attack non-walled cities with conventional means of warfare, while bribing the walled cities. I'd rather buy the city inside the wall than destroy the wall itself. It only takes one dip to bribe, but could take several to bring down city walls.

	24-03-2000 06:52									#24
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Thanks a lot sten... that link seems to work.

All this talk about how to use dips and spies have revolved around the assumption that the opponent actually cares about how much it costs to bribe the cities.

Here's the scenario: The only person I play civ with is a friend on a lan. (In net play, games are too long and never get finished, so I've given up playing people I don't know on the net) He likes to go full military/expansionist route, giving little regard to research and improving the quality of his conquered cities. He steals all the techs he needs, either by bribing or stealing, or both (first stealing, then bribing the city thereby getting 2 techs)

The coastal cities are particularly vulnerable for reasons mentioned in previous posts. And until ironclads, there's little u can do to interdict triemes and caravels from unloading the dips right into the cities.

Now, I've taken the advice of all the posters here about making the cities as expensive as possible to incite, but that doesn't completely deter my rather unimaginative opponent. Has anyone been able to come up with a counter solution to this?

	24-03-2000 06:57									#25
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Having a Diplomat is the best way! But other than that. build a courthouse and surround your city with units to kill the diplomat before he gets to the city.

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	24-03-2000 08:21									#26
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If the coastal cities are a problem, then don't build many, and maintain a naval patrol on those you do build. Democracy will keep you from losing cities, but not from losing techs. Remember that a city can lose a tech to a diplomat only once. The tech that is stolen by a diplomat is a random choice of what you have. It may be useless, and only serve to delay the tech your rival is researching. The 50% cost reductions apply to cities you originally built. You will win a war of bribery attrition eventually. I don't think there is a time limit on this.

	24-03-2000 09:51									#27
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no the only time war is a patience one Geofelt..... dip wars are no fun in MP.... and i now believe it to be a cheap win against the ai as well. I use dips for walls and sabotage.... not for taking cities especially against the ai and always in MP as i no longer play city bribe

	24-03-2000 17:41									#28
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Brainy - the only sure way to protect your coastal cities is to park a stack of units (either two boats, or a boat with a passenger) on every ocean square adjacent to your city. That stack can't be bribed - the only way for your opponent to reach the city is to sink the boats. That's a 50-50 proposition with triremes, but the odds are 2-1 against you with caravels. Building the Lighthouse gives you veteran ships and greatly improves your odds. If you have (and maintain) a big enough tech lead, your opponent should have a tough time besting your navy.

To make best use of this trick, you'd be well advised to build your coastal cities where they only contact 1 or 2 ocean squares.

	24-03-2000 23:04									#29
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I think bribing cities should be kept to playing the AI. AIs build up gold much faster than human, so is better at defending against it as human.
In games where bribing is allowed my defense is to grow my cities with WLTPD, keep a good amount of gold on hand (400-1000g) and bribe the cities back the turn after it was bribed. A size 5 city is almost impossible to bribe if you have at least 400g and it is not too far from your capitol. Bribing back a city the turn after is great. You can buy it for 25% the cost (revolt+your city) and even less since it will be far from the opponent capitol and the pop has decreased. I don't like to build courthouses because they are too expansive and slow down expanssion too much.
1 trick that can be used is to move your capitol close to the limit between to the 2 empires.
In games where bribing is allowed there is no need for armies which is ridiculous.

	25-03-2000 00:55									#30
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As far as courthouses go...I tend to build them against the AI when attempting to keep a newly captured city when it is the first city captured on the AI's continent. It never fails that when I get that first city, the AI bribes it back ASAP. If the AI is bribing a lot or I'm short on cash, I'll make sure to rush build a palace in that city so the AI can't bribe it. I don't bother with building a palace close to the newly captured city, I build it within that same city. The only time this strategy almost failed me was in a nuclear war when my new capital of Bombay was nuked. I lost few troops, but Bombay was never captured. Dumb, dumb AI. Those pesky Indians could have done me in with a little effort.