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Triumphus Romanus
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Jacksonville, Florida
Nov 2000
time: 05:14
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All I can say is....wow!
Now hurry up :-)
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I wish Activision had been this good.
Magnificent.
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Unspeakable Horror
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It´s really good!
------------------
"For each side the only acceptable outcome was the Total elimination of the other..."
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:14
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Omni,
Great job, huge scale. However, I have one pretty important quibble. While the coastlines are perfect, the terrain types seem a bit wierd. The elevation is a tad strange, for instance almost no Appalachian Mountains. Elevation is hard to do, cos do you make it purely based on distance above sea level, in which case some flat but high places come out as Hill or Mountain when they shouldn't, or do you do it based on degree of change in elevation, which requires a ton of judgements calls and eyeballing? I think the second is better, but much tougher.
The greenery also seems a bit off. Like looking at England, you've got a huge forest right in the industrial heartland of England, so the map can't be based on current data, and most of Ireland looks like Kansas- flat plains, so it can't be based on older data when Ireland was very green.
I followed the link you're using for the raw data, and it seems there doesn't seem to be really good vegetation data there. I've got some maps you might find useful, that apear to be in the same projection, great relief maps. What era do you want to vegetation to be based on- modern day, with all the massive deforestation? Or how things look naturally, before we f**ked things up so much? Or some combo in between? For instance, I've got a great data set that covers all the world in CTP2 type categories and its based on about 1960 data, before the deforestation really got out of control. But the map projection isn't the same, so you'd have to do a lot of eyeballing to get it on your map.
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CyberBadger
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A Magnificent piece of work. I look forward to the finished article.
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Salvius
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Dayton, OH, USA
Nov 2000
time: 05:14
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Comment/Suggestion:
What I've done, when using topographical data as part of the basis for a map, is base the hills & mountains on the slope -- that is, the change in elevation.
I don't have any examples ready to put up, but I'll try to post an example later today. I've done this with NASA data of Mars, and with a fractal-generated world, and been pretty happy with it. I use a program called Wilbur to generate slope maps, which can be found at http://www.ridgenet.net/~jslayton/software.html
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Salvius
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Dayton, OH, USA
Nov 2000
time: 05:14
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OK, after playing with the ETOPO5 dataset for an hour or so, I generated this using a slope map from Wilbur. I've left everything else as water and grassland, and I also left the mountains black, to make it easier to see where hills and mountains are:
I should point out that I made only the most basic attempt to adjust the slope map to get something that looked good, and only a rough attempt at setting sea level where it belongs. I also used Fractal Terrains as an intermediate step to get the data into a Mercator projection (just for fun) and crop off most of Antarctica. If I were doing this for real, I'd have used the GTOPO30 dataset (resolution of 1 km instead of 10), and been much more meticulous with things. This is for demonstration purposes only. 
[This message has been edited by Salvius (edited February 04, 2001).]
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Harlan
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Berkeley, CA, USA
Aug 2005
time: 21:14
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Omni,
This Wilbur sounds really potentially great. Let me know how it goes. Also, let me know which of the data sets I pointed to you prove useful.
Also, as long as you're making a map, you might want to make two versions: one, a "terrain rich" version, and the second, using the regular terrain. By terrain rich, what I mean is using extra terrain types on top of just the ones the regular game uses. I wrote a post about this a while back... One can't add new terrain types with new graphics, but one can add new terrain types using the same data sets.
In the latest Alex scenario, I took advantage of this in several ways. One, I created two types of desert: a regular desert and a "Sand Dune" desert (the current "sand dune" type being renamed to what they really are: "desert hills"). The Sand Dune is completely desolate, lacking all trade goods or production value of any kind, hard to pass through, and only units with the "mountain" flag can even try. There's a slightly different terrain graphic set to use here, that is the same as regular except without the cactus, skulls and so forth.
As I posted in some other long-lost thread, one can do this with other terrain types. For instance, have taiga/boreal forests look like regular forest, but when you transform them you get plains instead of grassland. Or have two types of deep ocean, differing only by movement speed. A faster type would represent the Gulf Stream and other currents. Give them a much higher trade good movement value, and trade routes will tend to go along these currents, greatly increasing naval strategy. There are other potentials as well in using the same terrain graphics for more than one type, though if we went too gozongas with that, it could become very confusing.
Another thing I did in Alex is use Polar Mountain to represent any mountain area over about 20,000 feet. This makes this terrain type more useful, since otherwise the only place to use this would be Greenland and Antarctica.
Anyways, my point is, it would be easy now if you make a map including all of these distinctions, so I hope you include them as you make your map. Then its easy later to wipe out the ones you don't need- to convert all taiga to regular forest would take a couple of seconds in Photoshop, for instance. But its hard to go the other way. If you don't add them now, adding them later will be nearly impossible.
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skorpion59
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Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
May 1999
time: 23:14
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Omni,
I downloaded and converted all 16 Globe 1km maps since I was using these maps as another input source in the map conversion pgm. I also joined all 16 together and made one big-a map. Unfortunately, a few days ago, I lost the 40g network drive all the data was on so it is now history. If you have any interest in thse maps let me know since I have the raw data specifications needed for the conversion.
In the mean time, I will look at the Plate Carree maps and see if I can figure out the conversion process for them.
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skorpion59
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Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
May 1999
time: 23:14
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Omni,
Are you speaking about the GLOBAL 1km map or the Plate Carree 1km map?
I have been using the GLOBAL 1km map and color indexing for conversion so I have not 'isolated the mountains/hills/slopes' per say.
One problem you might run into is size and memory. The Global 1km and Plate Carree 1km maps are both 43200x21600. Photoshop max is 30000x? and PSP max is 32767x? so you can't produce a 43200x21600 map. I ended up settling for 10800x5400 becuase that is all my memory would allow for and stay proportional. (43200x21600 --> 21600x10800 --> 10800x5400)
It appears we are attacking this thing from 2 totally different directions so I probably can't be of any help to you. However, if there is something I can do or check on for you, just let me know. In the mean time, I am trying to decide whether I want to try to re-create data (and source code) that I have been gathering since 1991 or just blow the whole thing off and forget about it.
EDIT: Roman, if I do pick back up, the conversion pgm will convert the map to Civ2.
[This message has been edited by skorpion59 (edited February 05, 2001).]
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skorpion59
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Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
May 1999
time: 23:14
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I haven't even looked at Wilbur yet. I will do that to see what can be done.
On the Plate Carree 1km map, can you save the whole jpg pic from the web page and blow it up to see the parts you are missing? Putting pics together is easy, taking them apart is another story. Possibly, Hex Editing the file will show where it can be broken apart but I'm not counting on it.
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OmniGod
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Philadelphia, PA, USA --> Really Canadian
Dec 1999
time: 00:14
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1 quick question. How would you, if it's at all possible open a file say 43200x21600 as a smaller file. Is there a way to have photoshop or anyother program cutout every other column in the dataset, or is the only alternative as you pointed out to save the image (under 1000x1000) and blow it up to fit the spaces. I did just have a thought since in Wilbur there is an option to start in a location other than 0,0 would this allow me to open another section of the map without openning the whole thing. Salvius, have you tried anything like that? If so, does it work that way and how would I go about doing it. This is more of a brainstorm at the moment since I'm off to clinic in a moment. Definately would be interested if this were possible.... Don you don't happen to have the colour legend for the Ground Cover map do you? Since this is your first view of it I doubt it but I just wanted to check base on it, since I can't find it anywhere and I would love to know exactly what the makers thought each colour represented. I could work through it but it would be a guess more than an exact science. And as people might notice by now, I like to be absolutely accurate.
One final note to Salvius, I tried to open the GLOBAL set piece by piece into Wilbur and ran the slope function getting a slope map. BUT there were too many lines to be of any real use. How do you limit the number of slope lines created and how can you determine what the minimum elevation change will result in a slope line, since I think that I only want changes when it changes more than say 250, 2500, 5000 meters. If you can help a poor guy out with this it would be appreciated.
And to think I was going to complete a map without truely considering all this extra data a week ago.
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Salvius
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Dayton, OH, USA
Nov 2000
time: 05:14
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I haven't tried using Wilbur to open pieces of maps, so I don't know if it would work or not. I think the author of the program was more concerned with being able to piece together several files into one, since most of the USGS data is divided into quadrangles or other chunks.
For slope maps, I believe what it does is considers black to be 0 elevation change, white to be whatever the maximum elevation change in the map is, and scales everything else to the other 254 shades in between. Although, come to think of it, when you tell it to produce a slope map, it does ask if you want to use the full range (or something like that), so it may be that there's a way to get it to use absolute slope values. You might try asking on the Wilbur mailing list, or emailing the author directly. He seems like he's always willing to answer questions.
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skorpion59
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Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
May 1999
time: 23:14
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No, unfortunately I don't have the Color Legend for the Plate Carree file or know how to break the big file into smaller files. Heck I can't even open a file in Wilbur.
I have other programs to read the file but they keep saying the file is invalid. I have D/L'd it a few times and it is always the same. So... I am getting files which are in different formats now. (I am D/L'ing a 933M .bzq ground cover file now.) The following 2 pages are helpful and I am sure a way around this can be achieved. That is, once I understand everything better.
GIS, 3D and Imagery Tools, http://www.grime.net/gistools/
GIS, 3D and Imagery Formats, http://www.grime.net/gistools/a-z.htm
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OmniGod
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Philadelphia, PA, USA --> Really Canadian
Dec 1999
time: 00:14
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Well I've given up on Wilbur for the slope map, so I hope everyone will be happy with the general "this area is higher than the surround" for hills and such. Since I'm in the middle of finals at the moment, it's moving slowly but I did have a huge break-through today with finding a site that has the Globalland cover data in Platte-Carre projection with the data split into continents with the same overall 43200 size... I'll have to scale to half the size. Another thing in my searches I came across a webhoster that will allow me to upload a gig of data so I may be able to share the final map at 21600x10800 with anyone who wants it but I'll try a smaller 10800x5400 for the db when it's complete...
Okay back to the original question. Harlan is there anyway to add different terrain data (ie add a colour to the bmp2ctp2 program to code for another terrain type?) This would be huge since you were talking about a rich map and not so rich map. I've got the data now. The question is can I use the data to my benefit or do I just make the not so rich map and leave it at that. The data is split into 13 terrain types + any ocean types that I can find in the next round of searches. Hopefully the answer is yes?
Rich - the exhausted.
EDIT: This is the landcover set that went with the map I ended up getting.
0 WATER (and Goode's interrupted space)
1 EVERGREEN NEEDLELEAF FOREST
2 EVERGREEN BROADLEAF FOREST
3 DECIDUOUS NEEDLELEAF FOREST
4 DECIDUOUS BROADLEAF FOREST
5 MIXED FOREST
6 WOODLAND
7 WOODED GRASSLAND
8 CLOSED SHRUBLAND
9 OPEN SHRUBLAND
10 GRASSLAND
11 CROPLAND
12 BARE GROUND
13 URBAN AND BUILT-UP
I would like to expand the bare ground into tundra, glacier, desert and maybe remove the urban build up, but it is a good guide for city placement (scenario builders dream come true), expand the water with a another mapset from the oceanographers maybe 5 types or 7 types there and maybe 4 levels of mountains. That would be a total approx 20-30 tile types. I think that would cover most types of land cover in the world today. Can anyone think of anymore types that I should look into when I set this up? The idea of terrain_improvements of trees would be a post map making thing but could work really well with this map since you could x-reference the type of trees in that area fairly easy, unless there is away to have the bmp2ctp2 program add tile improvements based on colour combinations? I think that I'm jumping the gun right now, but definately give me some ideas as I paste together the datasets.
[This message has been edited by OmniGod (edited February 17, 2001).]
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03-02-2001 11:33
This is scaled to 1/8 the size of the map. Base map consists of 20 deg X 10 deg squares, therefore this sample is 10 base squares by 5 base squares (50 total squares). The map is based on the lakes, rivers, geology and topography provided by Cornell @ 
the second image is the satellite image of approx the same area which I will use for comparison to data in the ground cover. 
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