04-04-2000 01:19									#1
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What Government do you think is the best?
Here's what I think.

#6 - Despotism. This is totally useless

#5 - Monarchy. This is good when you are expanding.

#4 - Republic. It's good for knowledge, but not much else

#3 - Fundamentalism - Great war gov. Also earns lot of money, and no unhappies.
However, halved science is bad.

#2 - Democracy. This is a super tech gov. I use it after I conquer most of the world in a Communist gov. It has so much trade, and my discoveries are 2 turns and stuff.


#1 - Communism. It has good trade and unit supports don't make unhappies.

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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon

	04-04-2000 01:29									#2
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This is Silver Dragon's sister again.

#6 - Despotism. bad.
#5 - Fundamentalism. no science.
#4 - Monarchy. good for early game expansion only.
#3 - Republic. good, but really just a watered down form of democracy.
#2 - Communism. ok middle ground.
#1 - Democracy. easily the best. trade bonus and no corruption are worth the unit support problems. also, democracies can fight wars reasonably well, if the cities are large enough. use the trade bonus to support luxuries and to win based on superior technology and more $.

Long live democracy!
--Silver Dragon's sister

	04-04-2000 03:21									#3
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But you don't mention the BEST advantage of Democracy... NO UNIT OR CITIES being bribed.

But after saying that, I'm starting to believe that Communism is the best form of war government. None of this senate want's peace crap

	04-04-2000 03:40									#4
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aside from the bribing vulnerability i think Commie can be very strong.No corruption gives decent science and with trade routes set up it can very good.Double martial law=built in Mich's Chapel and first 3 units free gives good production.This extra production is handy for caravans to build your treasury to make you,in effect,bribe proof

also you don't have to risk collapse.


++++++VET SPYS!

major downfall-no population growth with "we love days"

	04-04-2000 03:54									#5
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I'm with you Smash.
I played a solo game over the weekend. (gasp) I was getting better science from Com. then Democ. No annoying senate. Tribute. Production.

VET SPYS.

RAH
The ai was sending bombers at the end but not spys. Gotta love it.
You can use Democ/Repub for the few turns you need for wltkd.
[This message has been edited by rah (edited April 03, 2000).]

	04-04-2000 04:10									#6
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I agree with you. I have a game as the Babylonians, and I am in a communist gov. I have conquered all of the world except three cities. My discoveries are every three turns and I am making 1200 gold a turn. I am going to switch to a democracy once the AI is down to one city. I don't need it, but I am trying to get lots of future tech.

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Long live the Communists!
-- SilverDragon

	04-04-2000 04:27									#7
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yes communism is great if the game is into the modern era...... however, if your off to the usual great start against the ai, Fundy is still the all out war govt.

Sure you take the beating in science and bribing is far too easy, but if your tech is light years ahead, why not go fundy after a few years of WLTKD in Demo, to fight.

Of Course with SOL, the choice for commie is there as well making Fundy pointless if the game is close. As commie is like a souped up monarchy but without the corruption

I find against the ai the only gov't i don't really use at all is republic...... as democracy is right around the corner and i can usually afoard to wait until then

	04-04-2000 04:48									#8
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Yes, I love the Vet Spies in communism. However, I don't think it has the edge over Fundy when it comes to sheer conquest on the larger maps. The main reason is that the AI will mirror your reasearch rate. When it falls in Fundy - so will the AI tech-rate.

It is quite interesting to re-start a game to compare the effects of different governments. I did this not long ago on a large waterworld. By good luck I had a save the year I built SoL. The first time I played as a communist. At the end of the game there were bombers and armor. When the re-start in Fundy was played the AI had just reached Amphibious Warfare. If caravans are used well in Fundy, a respectable research rate is easy. The AI seldom builds freights when at war.
--------
SG (2)

	04-04-2000 05:18									#9
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I love the despot day! Has anyone won the space race in despotism? Large world,large land only. No biddy maps. No nukes. No goody
huts! Muahhahah 2.42 ers might win but the
space ship aint landin in 1650!!

	04-04-2000 10:29									#10
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My list:

Worst: Despotism (of course...no benefits over other governments)

Monarchy

Republic

Communism

(slightly better than Monarchy, but I feel it's hedge bet. Pure war, go Fundie, pure AC, go Demo)

Fundamentalism

(nothing more fun than hundreds of units at your command, without support)

Best-Democracy

(no city bribing, best tech hands down, and who needs the senate, when you have an ally in mp, or civs at war with your enemy? *wg*)

-KhanMan of the Sayen

	04-04-2000 10:31									#11
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Neon-It would be interesting to see an OCC Challenge in despotism...I think the topic has come up a few times before here, but I don't remember if anyone succeeded, or when...

-KhanMan of the Sayen Tribe

	04-04-2000 10:50									#12
	Put an end to popups!

IMO.... what makes this game so easy is the ability of WLTKD in rep and demo...... growing every turn seems too easy to me.

I have never noticed if the ai can do this nor am i going to try, perhaps someone will or has

as i have yet to MP, does WLTKD make the person who does it first have an unfair advantage..... kinda like the first to monarchy in duels or what.......

from reading the boards i have gathered most do not like duels...... as it usually ends up that one player gets off to a huge lead

	04-04-2000 16:42									#13
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Obviously i start off with Despotism, then Monarchy.
I'll stay Monarchy until i discover Communism.
But when i have about 20 cities, the fun starts and i switch to Fundamentalism and never leave it.
Communism is good, but only when your main military concern is defence. The three 'free' units means nothing to me, since all my cities have a standard of three fortified units no matter what. They offer martial law and good defence. I keep them even in Fundamentalism.
Fundamentalism has:
-No corruption/waste whatsoever.
-Free maintenance for Temples, Collosea and Cathedrals.
-Tithes for Temples, Collosea, Cathedrals and Oracle/J.S. Bach's Cathedral.
-Up to 10 units free support (in some games only 8)
The downside being -50% science. That doesn't bother me. With the gold i save i buy caravans and get the science anyway.
And since my empire is so big during Fundamentalism, no less than 20 perfectionist cities, i get a science rate of less than 10 turns anyway.
IMO Republic and democracy suck sour frog arse, even in peacetime. What with the inability to demand tribute and Senate interference ugh*hack*ptui

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ugh crud, why won't they fall prey to my Machiavellian schemes?

	04-04-2000 17:24									#14
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I read an interview with Brian Reynolds at the time Civ II was released. He said that in Civ I, people either used Despotism or Democracy; one of the goals in Civ II was to make other governments more attractive. Well, they succeeded partially, I think. The opinions so far seem to favor one of three governments: Communism, Fundamentalism, or Democracy. There is no reason to use Monarchy if Communism is available, and no reason to use Despotism if anything else is available. Nobody in this thread has advocated Republic, but it does have an advantage over Democracy in units causing unhappiness.

Personally, I think Communism is the best all-around choice. The lack of a riot factor is a huge boost if you like lots of cities. If you can crank luxuries enough to get WLTCD, you can pick up Democracy-level trade without the hassles. The major disadvantage in MP is the lack of bribe protection. If you play "no city bribes", then there's no reason not to go for it.

	04-04-2000 19:04									#15
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In my opinion, the interesting question is this:

Are there one or two BEST governments, or is it best to be flexible according to how the game is going?

I'm not sure about the answer, but here are some examples of flexibility:

I almost never use republic, but if I am planning to go to democracy later (see below), and I happen to open a hut and get republic, and the world is pretty peaceful at the moment, and I have hardly any units out exploring -- why then I go to republic.

Later in the game, you want to be in fanatacism, democracy or communism, depending on the situation. If you are well defended, can build some of the happiness wonders, and you are going for a research win or a quick spaceship, what's wrong with democracy? You'll enjoy the big trade bonus.

If you are going for an all out attack, what's wrong with fanatacism? Xin Yu's strategy for getting science almost entirely via caravans will still work, and you are going to conquer a lot of science anyway.

For a combination of advanced technology development and attack, communism looks awfully good. You often get more trade than in a democracy becuase you do not have to divert so much effort to keeping up luxury.

ON THE OTHER HAND, playing at deity level, I currently try to get fanatacism asap. This is the only way I've figued out, so far, to build a lot of cities without dealing with that first unhappy (or angry) cit. I figure after I build a big city base, I can decide whether to go for conquest, or develop some happiness and switch govts.

- toby


------------------
toby robison
criticalpaths@mindspring.com

	04-04-2000 19:36									#16
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toby - you'll never see a first unhappy citizen under Communism, either.

	04-04-2000 19:42									#17
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I would say that the designers did an excellent job in making all forms of goverment attractive. Sure, Democracy, Fundamentalsim and Communism are the best government forms, as well they should be. They are the last ones to be discovered. Despotism, Monarchy and Republic are simply intermediate steps. You don't keep building chariots when cavalry becomes available, just as you don't stay as Monarchy when Communism becomes available.

My favorite government is Republic. WLTCDs are extremely important to OCC, so that jump from size 5 to size 12 (and then size 21 with sanitation) is the biggest event in my games. Sure, I switch to Democracy as soon as it is available, but by then the important part of the game is over.

	04-04-2000 19:54									#18
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I tend to spend much of my mid-game in republic, mainly because I play TOT and have a lot of military units out exploring all four maps. Democracy just dosen't cut it for the kind of huge-world exploration I engage in.

Toby: have you noticed that dwarves count as military in the fantasy game? This is another reason to stay in republic. Then there are the helicopter / missle / bomber units; they come early and often in both the Fantasy and the SF games. Are there any Buteo units that DON'T qualify as helicopter types? Playing them in Greatlaw must be a nightmare...

	05-04-2000 09:46									#19
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Demo is easy if you are big. The happy guys
off set the "out of towners" Coupled with Women's Suffrage and Shaky's who needs fundy?? Just home all your pissed off air units in the city with shaky's. Unless for some reason you need more than 50 bombers.
And if you fine tune your economy it will run
in the black at 0% tax!

	04-04-2000 22:12									#20
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Although not applicable in the classic game, Republic is often desirable in scenarios when you can get the (renamed) Women's Suffrage wonder fairly early. Rep + WS means no unit unhappiness at all plus excellent science and the ability to grow with WLTCD. Since most scenarios are "total war" types, the AI won't foil your war plans with senate negotiated peace offerings.

In the standard SP game, I never find much use for Communism. You can either have good science or good money with Communism, but not both. Without money, vet Spies won't have enough gold to bribe. Fundy kills you in science but the extra gold and production means you can produce an armada of Spies to steal AI techs with abandon, often with no reputation hit.

	05-04-2000 00:05									#21
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Republic is definitely a huge step early in the game due to the WLTCD. Bigger cities = bigger trade bonuses = lots of gold and science. After your cities get big, though, a switch is always in order depending on the status of the game.

Neighbors Too Close? Use Fundy and war to open up some space if bribery isn't an option.

Need to expand? Go Commie and build a host of cities without unhappiness, but without the science hit of Fundy.

Well established positionally? Democracy is my choice when I am happy with my civ status. Use it to grow your cities once your position is strong.

If you don't use Republic and WLTKD to intelligently manage the growth of your cities early in the game, I feel you are missing out on a golden opportunity. Use taxmen/scientists to reduce the food supply to 0 in a city if you have not established the infrastructure to support additional growth (temples built, markets built, etc). It is always nice to have ten size 8 cities early in the game when the AI only has 3-4 smaller ones!!
[This message has been edited by inca911 (edited April 04, 2000).]

	05-04-2000 02:11									#22
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I have yet to use communism in a regular game. I know I should. But usually I go form monarchy to Democracy. I never use Republic as well. It's said here the units away from home penalty isn't as bad, but it's still more than I can bear. But maybe because the few times I used Republcic, I got it so early, my cities were still too small to support units in the field. But SOL and Democracy come the same time, so I go straight for Democracy. If I had SOL earlier, I might consider Republic and Communism earlier.