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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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Philip II moved the capital from Valladolid to Madrid in 1561, shortly after being crowned King. However under Philip III (Philip II's son and succesor) the court was moved back to Valladolid for a few years. In 1607 Philip III officially made the city the national capital, a status it has retained ever since.
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FYI, Valladolid had been the capital of Spain since the "creation" of the kingdom of Spain in 1469, although Charles I (HR emperor Charles V) always considered Toledo, not Valladolid as his capital.
Before the unification of Castile with Aragon, the capitals of Castile had been León, Burgos, Toledo and finally Valladolid. The capital of Aragon was always in Zaragoza (Saragossa).
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"Our community extends beyond national frontiers. Whether it is an Argentinian or a Spaniard, a Chilean or a Mexican, we all know as children that our national language is the language of many nations, and that it was born in Spain many centuries ago... without it, our people would not exist"
Octavio Paz, Mexican Writer. Nobel Laureate 1990, Cervantes Prize 1982
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XarXo
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of the "I agree"
Jul 2000
time: 05:14
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Oh, yes, the official catalanoaragonese capital was Saragossa, but the economical was truly Barcelona, and the cultural València xDD. And everybody knows that the court of the confederation was in Barcelona...
This info mistakes are tipically spansih... But...
You know the theorics about Cristofulus Columbus was catalan (curiously, there is an important amount of "Colom" surname, that is Columbus in catalan, people near the PALS town zone, and MORE curiously, the starter town of the expedition was "PALOS", when this "PALOS" was a tiny barracs amount near the water, without any seaport, but PALS has a great seaport with relationship with Geneve... And *MORE* curious: there are a lot of pictures that show a catalanoaragonese flag in the three ships, and in modern version they are *misteriously* changed for spanish ones... OOOOh... REALLY mysterious!!  )?
Yes, all them are a TYPICALL historic spanish strange things... 
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Si el que fas és per a distraure't i no t'ho passes bé respecte amb el teu tarannà, llavors varia-ho.
Tant de bó tothom canviï la vella costum de quedarse
amb el que no vol per simple i estúpid orgull...
Dirigit als usuaris catalans-valencians-balears de Call to Power I .
[This message has been edited by XarXo (edited January 22, 2001).]
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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(Jay Bee is stirring the pot up a bit in order to create an interesting debate)
quote:
Originally posted by XarXo on 01-22-2001 09:35 PM
Oh, yes, the official catalanoaragonese capital was Saragossa, but the economical was truly Barcelona, and the cultural València xDD. And everybody knows that the court of the confederation was in Barcelona...
This info mistakes are tipically spansih... But...
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Ergo, the capital of Aragon was Saragossa, exactly what I wrote...  No typically-Spanish mistake here
quote:
catalanoaragonese
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A term coined in the XIX century for obvious political reasons. Why not "catalanoaragonesevalencian majorcan"?
quote:
catalanoaragonese flag
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Hey Xarxo, you might find it interesting to read the Jan issue of La Aventura de la Historia Else, do you believe the Cabeza de Estopa legend was true?
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"Our community extends beyond national frontiers. Whether it is an Argentinian or a Spaniard, a Chilean or a Mexican, we all know as children that our national language is the language of many nations, and that it was born in Spain many centuries ago... without it, our people would not exist"
Octavio Paz, Mexican Writer. Nobel Laureate 1990, Cervantes Prize 1982
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XarXo
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of the "I agree"
Jul 2000
time: 05:14
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Yes, Seville was the official seaport for the Americas colonization, but...
-The OLDEST paper speaks about "PALOS DE LA FRONTERA" as the starter seaport of Columbus expedition, the FIRST one, but Palos de la Frontera in these epoch was (as I said) an amount of barracs quite far of the sea when Pals was a quite important seaport with relationship with Geneve...
And some other things that are totally TRUE:
-I have to remember you that the "spanish" court prohibited to the catalan commerce (Barcelona) to trade with the Americas. Why? Because Barcelona have
an important commercial developement in the Mediterranean, and Seville what have? Commerce with the "richest" and "friend" arabian kingdom of Morocco?
The reason is the same as today, and is the actually excuse for some events that you know...
-The official capital of the Catalanoaragonese Federation (yes, is a modern word, but why don't say USA as the 13 Old English Colonies in this case too? ) was Saragossa, but the court was always in Barcelona. It is a similar case as the USA state of New York, where Albany is the true capital ¿why? ask to the history...
-Finally, as I said always, Barcelona is a "small" city, but if you amount all the power of its economical region...
INTERESTING LINKS:
Columbus catalan? What a joke!! or NOT...
http://www.banrep.gov.co/blaavirtua...cu/colocris.htm
http://www.paisvirtual.com/universi...roja/colome.htm
http://www.sola-sole.com/merril.htm http://clio.rediris.es/articulos/colon.htm
In the second one, note that "ColoM" is Colón (Columbus) in catalan...
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A vegades surt més a compte oblidar el concepte científic d'acceptar dues versions encara que no t'agradi, sobretot quan les dues han arribat a una conclusió certa, això sol passar quan aqueixes són la mateixa o quan una ha fet el possible per eliminar l'altra, generant proves que ara han esdevingut indiscutibles...
La veritat és sempre una cosa que s'amagat durant la història, i la matixa història sol ser una mentida basada en l'ocultació de la veritat.
-Filòsof català-valencià-balear
[This message has been edited by XarXo (edited January 23, 2001).]
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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:14
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Since I think Stefan's question has already been answered, I'll turn to Spanish to reply Jay Bee and XarXo's questions...
If Stefan, cpoulos or anyone else is interested anyway, tell me so and I'll make a big effort to translate it...
Jay Bee,
lo que quiero decir es que Salamanca representaba la "vieja escuela". Estaba dominada por los dominicos, que seguían a pies juntillas a Santo Tomás y rechazaban de pleno cualquier tendencia que hoy denominaríamos humanista y que entonces se caracterzaban por la influencia de Platón, San Agustín y los neoplatónicos florentinos (Ficino, della Mirandola).
Ese tipo de enseñanzas sí se permitían, e incluso se promovían, en Alcalá de Henares. Recuerda que la Complutense fue fundada por Cisneros, quien se encargó de trazar el programa que había de ser impartido en ella. Por lo que parece, uno de sus máximos anhelos fue la incorporación de Erasmo, el humanista por excelencia de principios del siglo XVI.
Lo de Fray Luis de León lo he mirado mejor y resulta que no llegó a enseñar en Alcalá, aunque sí había estudiado allí de joven.
El caso es que en Salamanca ingresó en la orden de San Agustín, tradicionalmente asociada con los fgranciscanos y enemiga de los dominicos. Especializado en exégesis bíblica, lenguas clásicas y semíticas, filosofía y semítica, empezó a enseñar en la Universidad de Salamanca, y debido a su prestigio, consiguió en 1561 la cátedra de Teología, que hasta entonces había sido coto privado de los dominicos. Sus enemigos le acusaron ante la Inquisición de menospreciar el texto latino de la Biblia y de haber traducido clandestinamente el Cantar de los Cantares. Fue hallado culpable y estuvo en la cárcel de 1572 hasta 1576.
Lo que creo que sirve para probar el caracter involucionista de Salamanca en una fecha tan avanzada como 1572. Es cierto que la Contrarreforma, que empezaba a ponerse en marcha, miraba con cierta sospecha los excesos humanistas, pero, y esto es lo más importante, la imagen de Felipe II como rey fanático, intolerante y cerrado a la cultura y las ciencias es una imagen propagada por la leyenda negra que dista mucho de la realidad. Felipe II, como corresponde al monarca del mayor imperio del mundo en su tiempo, se esforzó por promover la ciencia y la técnica españolas, y llegó a hacer de El Escorial un centro del saber científico español y europeo en general.
Ufff, lo siento por este post tan largo... 
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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:14
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Ahora voy con lo tuyo, XarXo...
Mira, en primer lugar, decirte que casi ningún historiador serio duda hoy del nacimiento de Colón en Génova.
En su testamento escribe: "Essendo io nato en Genova". Creo que no es necesario traducirlo.
Resulta que todas las cartas de caracter familiar Colón las redactaba en dialecto ligur. Cuando escribe correspondencia oficial en castellano, resulta que utiliza la ortografía del portugués, por lo que todos los historiadores coinciden en señalar que había aprendido antes el portugués que el castellano. Esto es comprensible si se trata de un genovés, pero muy extraño si en efecto hubiese sido catalán. ¿No habría utilizado la ortografía catalana? ¿Y no habría tenido contacto con el castellano mucho antes que con el portugués?
Otros dato bastante definitivo es que se haya identificado a su padre como un cardador de lana vecino de Génova.
Si quieres consultar libros (no páginas de Internet, que con el debido respeto tengo que decirte que llevo tres años buscando una página que trate con rigor la historia española y no he encontrado ninguna), consulta "Los descubridores" de Daniel Boorstin y "Los conquistadores del Imperio español", de Jean Descolá. Boorstin es estadounidense y además judío, mientras que Descolá es francés, o sea que imagino que no estarán interesados en hacer propaganda españolista...
Hay una cosa, no obstante, que reconozco: el poder marítimo de Aragón era mucho mayor que el de Castilla hacia 1492. Pero recuerda que, durante la Reconquista, los reinos cristianos acostumbraban a acordar mediante tratados y compromisos, sus respectivas áreas de influencia. La de Aragón quedó definitivamente fijada en el Mediterráneo, la de Castilla hacia el Atlántico. Es así de simple. Luego, con la unión de los reinos mediante el matrimonio de Isabel y Fernando, es lógico que Fernando aportase recursos de Aragón para la empresa de Colón, igual que Isabel aportó tropas castellanas para la conquista de Nápoles.
Y una última pregunta que te hago: ¿crees de verdad que la historiografía española podría preferir una ascendencia genovesa de Colón a una ascendencia catalana? Yo a eso no le encuentro sentido... si hubiese pruebas al respecto, yo sería el primero en alegrarme y enorgullecerme por ello...
Me encantan estos debates...
[This message has been edited by Fiera (edited January 24, 2001).]
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kIndal
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de la taifa de Almería, Spain.
Oct 2000
time: 06:14
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Xarxo, you have said that a Spanish court prohibited to the catalan commerce to trade with America, that is true, but you have forgotten that any seaport in Spain could do it, Valencia, Cartagena, Almeria, Malaga, Santander, La Coruña... couldn´t do it. Only Seville and then, Cadiz could commerce with it so it wasn´t a anticatalanist conspiracy and, in 1778, when Catalan merchants wanted to commerce with the colonies because English were an inmportant competence, the king Charles III order a royal order allowing the free commerce between America and any seaport of Spain.
And, well, you have said that Barcelona was the most important city of the kingdom of Aragon but in Valencia don´t think so, here you can read (and study  aargghhh the exams) that Valencia was the biggest city in Spain and the most important commercial center of all the Mediterranean sea, and Barcelona was in decadence.
About Seville as seaport, well...it is nearer of America than Barcelona and if they commerce only with Morrocco, as the "poor" and "small" city of Lisbon.
And i think that born city of Columbus isn´t important, in each town and village have lot of stories about the famous who was born here. The important fact that the culture which conquest America was the Spanish, not the Castilian, and what is the importantce of Columbus, i have read that Asians, Vikings, Jewels, Irish, Romans, Phoenincians... have discover America before Spanish?????
JB -> EL MANZANARES ES UN GRAN RIO, Y EN EL SE UBICA EL MAS GRANDE DE LOS ESTADIOS DE FUTBOL ESPAÑOL, ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡AUPA ATLETI!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by kIndal on 01-24-2001 04:14 PM
i have read that Asians, Vikings, Jewels, Irish, Romans, Phoenincians... have discover America before Spanish?????
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As far as I know, asians in the 15th century, Vikings maybe in the 11th or 12th century(This almost borders on legend),Irish is just legends, Romans and Phoneceans are just fantasy, and I don't recognize The Jewels. At any rate, Spain was the only one to have a lasting impact.
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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Fiera... uhm... scusi?
Getting back to the Salamanca Univ, I basically agree with you but even with that bigotry topping just about everything, Salamanca still had much prestige in Europe. And I am not really sure that the Complutensis Universitas had much to do with Philip's decision to move the capital to Madrid. It's been a lot of time since I read Kamen's book on the subject but I do not recall Philip II being so interested in 'universal culture'. He was a fanatic of painting, medieval tourneys, women (of course), hunting, and not much more. He could find plenty of that in Madrid and surroundings.
PS. Now that we're talking about Philip II and Columbus lemme guys say that I am spending a few weeks in Valladolid and the house I am living in is less than one mile away from the house were Philip II was born. I am also pretty close to the house where Columbus died. Laugh at me if you will, but I had never been in Valladolid before and am really fascinated by the huge amount of history that so many buildings of this city have to offer. More than Madrid, yes.
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited January 24, 2001).]
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Fiera on 01-24-2001 06:16 PM
Decía que si te prestabas voluntario a ayudarme a traducir mis "speeches" sobre Fray Luis de León y Colón para cpoulos...
Es que a mi me costaría como media hora o más cada uno, y tú seguro que lo haces en un santiamén...
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Pues la verdad es que en un santiamén precisamente no Esto del ingles es como una patada en los güevillos a que si?
Bueno, que te parece que tal va el forum? Yo sigo intentando atraer gente pero estoy obteniendo mas fracasos que exitos, la verdad. A ver si cuando XarXo lo anuncie desde ElTaranná conseguimos más contertulios.
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"Our community extends beyond national frontiers. Whether it is an Argentinian or a Spaniard, a Chilean or a Mexican, we all know as children that our national language is the language of many nations, and that it was born in Spain many centuries ago... without it, our people would not exist"
Octavio Paz, Mexican Writer. Nobel Laureate 1990, Cervantes Prize 1982
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Fiera on 01-24-2001 07:48 PM
¿Viste lo que te dije sobre Manuel Palma en la Location FAQ? Creo que habría que conseguir que se animase a postear aquí,
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Le escribi y me escribio pero no ha aparecido por aqui, y por el tono de su e-mail no se le veia muy por la labor
quote:
También hecho de menos a Beto... ¿sabes algo de él?
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Beto es otra historia. No creo que le veamos por aqui en bastantes meses.
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Luego lo de ElTaranna... Mi página ya está enlazando a este forum, pero supongo que habrá que tener paciencia...
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Si, pero seria igualmente bueno si XarXo enlazase desde su pagina tambien, no? Bueno, esas son cosas de "regimen interno" suyo.
quote:
Y luego hay que ir poniendo en práctica ideas para dar más vida en el forum, como lo de la Location FAQ... un Apolyton Hispánica Picture Contest, o algo por el estilo podría ser divertido...
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Cierto, tenemos buena ayuda con cpoulos, eh? Solo espero que los bosses no se mosqueen mucho, je,je.
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"Our community extends beyond national frontiers. Whether it is an Argentinian or a Spaniard, a Chilean or a Mexican, we all know as children that our national language is the language of many nations, and that it was born in Spain many centuries ago... without it, our people would not exist"
Octavio Paz, Mexican Writer. Nobel Laureate 1990, Cervantes Prize 1982
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22-01-2001 21:17
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