06-02-2001 10:56									#1
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O.K. guys, this question is for my own edifacation: What was the first city in Spain to be settled? Is it still around? With the same name? Who settled it? This is one of those things I want in my personal European file, so any help would be appreciated.

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	05-02-2001 23:25									#2
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Difficult to say. The oldest city in Iberia whose foundation is well documented and has been populated ever since is Cadiz, which was founded ca. 1000 BC by the Phoenicians. That makes the "Silver Cup" (i.e. Cadiz) the oldest city in Western Europe. However it is likely that Celtic & Iberian settlements like Toletum (nowadays Toledo), Corduba (Cordoba), Hispalis (Seville), Helmantike (Salamanca), Gerunda (Girona), Onuba (Huelva)... already existed at that time.


PS. I had to read much on this for "Of Celts and Iberians"

PPS. Cpoulos, take a look at your PM's

	06-02-2001 00:58									#4
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Cpoulos, Whatever Jay say Cadiz is the oldest city in Spain and it has more than 3000 years of history without a break and its name has only suffered from phonetic changes, i.e.

Gadir = Fortresses < Phoenician
Gadeira < Greek
Gades < Latin
Qadis < Arab
Cadiz < Spanish
Cai < Andalusian Gaditanensis

The rest were probably hunters settlements (without temples, harbours, shipyards, markets or guilds) so they weren't cities.

Esto es Cai y aquí hay que mamá!!!

(Has anyone noticed I am from Cadiz????)

	06-02-2001 02:46									#6
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Gadir is probably the oldest, but the Phoenicians founded a number of settlements along the so

	06-02-2001 13:38									#7
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and why not Los Millares (province of Almería), 2900 or 2200 bc? it was the most important center of Bronze Age in Spain, it has stone constructions, as mills, city walls, cementary, religious constructions. And their inhabitants has some contacs with East cultures.
¡¡¡Que hay que barrer para la tierra!!!

	06-02-2001 21:12									#8
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Ah, very inlightning! Could you tell me something about Saguntum and Emporiae, two cities settled by Phocaea(Not the Phoenicians, Phocaea was a Greek city in Asia minor). If there still around, and what are called today? As far as I know, they were settled sometime between 750 and 550 BC. thanks again!

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	06-02-2001 23:51									#9
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Tartessos or Tarsis or Tarschich ??? (Guadalquivir river?)
Onoba Huelva (Spain) Tartesian
Ossonoba ? (Spain) Tartesian
Gadir Cadiz (Spain) Phoenician
Malaca Malaga (Spain) Phoenician
Sexi Almuñecar (Spain) Phoenician
Abdera Adra (Spain) Phoenician
Tingis Tangier (Maroc) Phoenician
Tamuda ? (Maroc) Phoenician
Lixus Larache (Maroc) Phoenician
Ebussus Ibiza (Spain) Phoenician
Melussa Menorca (Spain) Phoenician
Cromiussa Mallorca (Spain) Phoenician
Massalia Marseille (France)Phocaean
Mainake unknown(Malaga province) (Spain) Phocaean
Edetan Sagunto (Spain) iberian
Hemeroskopion unknown (Nao Cape) Phocaean
Alonai ? ? Phocaean
Molybdon ? ? Phocaean
Emporion Ampurias (Spain) Phocaean

Cpoulos this list it's not complete but I hope u find it useful anyway.

Estoy seguro de que me olvidado de alguna pero llevo ya media hora buscando así que la lista está abierta.

	07-02-2001 00:15									#10
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... and a present for Kindal:
http://www.busco.net/historia/iberosmapa.htm

	07-02-2001 00:54									#11
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Very cool Waku! Thanks!

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	07-02-2001 04:17									#12
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I know this is getting quite chauvinistic but I can't help it:

---quote---
Los cálculos de la fecha de la fundación de Gadir son todos de época muy tardía. Según el historiador latino Velleius, que vivión época del emperador Tiberio, Gadir se fundó en tiempo del regreso de los heráclidas. "...en esta época, la flota tiria que dominaba el mar, funda Gadir". La cita, interpretada al pie de la letra, nos da la fecha de 1104 a. de J.C. Combinada esta fecha con la que se atribuye a la fundación de la colonia fenicia africana de Útica (287 años antes que Carthago, que se funda en el 814 antes de J.C.), se halla una fecha de 1101 para Útica, de la que se dice se fundó poco después de Gadir. Esta fue la creencia general de los historiadores latinos, como Pomponio Mela y Plinius. Este último la fija en 1178 años antes de su época y como escribe en el año 77 de nuestra Era, resulta una fecha de 1101 para la fundación de Gadir, que coincide aproximadamente con Velleius. De la antiguedad de tal fundación se hace eco Estrabón cuando dice que fue poco después de la caída de Troya. En conjunto, una fecha de un cuarto de siglo antes del máximo desarrollo de la actividad fenicia en el Mediterraneo.
---unquote---

quick translation:

According to Velleius (Tiberius age), Gadir was founded during the "return of heraclides" 1104BC
Utica was founded 287 years before Carthago (founded in 814 BC), what means that Utica was founded in 1101 BC, which is said to have been founded a few years later than Gadir. This is the general belief of Plinus or Pompolio Mela.

In 77AD Plinius stated Gadir was founded 1178 years ago, then Gadir was founded in 1101BC which is nearly the same than Velleius

Estrabon said that Gadir was founded a few years after the fall of Troya.


Sorry, it was stronger than me...

	07-02-2001 11:11									#13
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Waku, the more stuff the better! Don't worry about the amount of info you put up for my questions! I want as much information as possible. I like to know stuff!

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	07-02-2001 19:33									#14
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cpoulos,

Saguntun was not founded by the Phocaean Greeks. It was an Iberian city (Waku would probably call it hunter settlement... oh well)