30-01-2001 07:46									#1
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Allright dudes, we talked about Spain in victory , now we must see Spain in defeat. . Same as last time, any Spanish speaking country can be included, But for a twist, pick a land and a sea fight. As last time, I won't say what I'm thinking till you guys comment first.

	30-01-2001 12:50									#2
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Without doubt, the defeat of Rocroi in 1643, it was the starting of the end for Spanish Power in Europe.

	31-01-2001 10:13									#3
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Agreed, kIndal, 1643 was such a sad year for Spain...

As for the sea fight, it can't be other but Trafalgar, and I guess cpoulos is thinking of that one too...

Why did we have to make an alliance with those damned French?

	31-01-2001 10:29									#4
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1810 was a sad year for Spain...

VIVA LA INDEPENDENCIA! VIVA!

	30-01-2001 23:43									#6
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No doubt: "The War of Cuba"

No other defeat has had more bitter effects.

	31-01-2001 01:23									#7
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well, the most famous one for non spaniards is the great armada
but I agree with Kindal and Fiera about Rocroi

	31-01-2001 09:09									#8
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VAMOS San Martin CARAJO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	01-02-2001 21:29									#12
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I was out of town and could not respond to this thread on time. But I agree with the opinions by others; greatest naval defeat Trafalgar, and greatest land defeat Rocroi.


A note about the disaster of the Spanish Armada. This loss (?) has been exaggerated til the unimaginable. The real truth is that the Spanish 'suffered' a very undecisive defeat. Philip II was able to completely rebuild the fleet within a few months after the battle. Not many people know that Philip II sent another Armada (this time only 52 ships!) against Britain just 9 months after the first one. The ships encountered very bad wheather when approaching Brittany and, in view of the precedent, decided to turn back (source: Philip of Spain by Henry Kamen, an English historian)

Another note about the tragedy of Trafalgar: Spain was still the second naval power in the world and did not deserve to be smashed the way it was. Spanish, not French, admirals should have been put in command. I do not discuss that the victory would have been for the British anyway, but it is most certain that the defeat could have been much more honorable. Not to mention that this battle crippled the Spanish navy for centuries to come.


------------------
"Yo hablo español; el castellano no lo sé pronunciar"
(I speak Spanish. I do not know how to pronounce Castilian)

Octavio Paz, Mexican Writer. Nobel Laureate 1990, Cervantes Prize 1982
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited February 01, 2001).]

	07-02-2001 20:33									#13
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In earth, no doubt: Rocroi was absolutely decissive. It was the death of Spain as a global potence and the confirmation of France as the new one. It was also the end of the "tercios", clarely defeated by the "batallions" as a result of the new and more effective fire weapons (muskets).
In the water... well, Jay Bee is right when says the Spanish Armada is more a legendary defeat than a decissive defeat (I also read Kamen's book), and the defeat at Trafalgar was the end of the Spanish Navy. No doubt the french losses were greater, but there is a very important point: during XVI and XVII century, spanish navy had great ships and mediocre admirals; in XVIII century, a new generation of naval officers as good as english ones appeared. For the first time, Spain had a great navy with well-prepared Admirals (Churruca, for example). And Trafalgar destroyed that.

P.S: ¡Puñeteros gabachos! ¡Como enemigos son terribles y como amigos ni te cuento!

	07-02-2001 20:36									#14
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Excuse me, wrong post
[This message has been edited by jasev (edited February 08, 2001).]