08-02-2001 20:14									#1
	30 years war Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I am making a GREAT update of my scenario about The 30 years war .
I will include some thing like this:

Multievents.
Almost ALL graphics changed.
Almost 100% historical accuracy (well, i will try).
Design to be played by all nations.

I thing that it will be a new scenario almost completly and I will ask for a playtester for each nation(but it will be in the future)

Suggestions, comments and bugs of the last version (i know much of them but always appears some new ones) are welcomed.

	08-02-2001 21:22									#2
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Apart from what I have allready discussed whit you I wonder:
Why did the swedes get a warship at turn 51? There was no explanation, just the event.

[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited February 08, 2001).]

	09-02-2001 10:24									#3
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stuff that I didn“t like about 30 year war

-is a really slow moving scenario, the unit are really expensive,

-there is no ottoman and english influence

-I don“t understand why the Swedish are that powerful, they have fortresses and factories (too powerful)

there are a lot of differences between the nations, that it“s cool but they make the civilizations unbalanced, for example, the french only has galleys and the spaniards warships, mercantsihp... and the already mentioned sweden

maybe it sounds like if I didn“t like the scenario but I do like it a lot, I“m playing and email game about so....

I hope I“m not being rude

	09-02-2001 03:15									#4
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Henrik, I have to recognize that i don“t know the reason of this event . I make the scenario 3 years ago.

Shaka, "no problemo", i have write this topic to know my mistakes and it was one of my first scenarios so i have lot of problems

-some people have said to me that the movement is too slow so i will increase it to normal terms.
-Ottomans and English there is no space for them, in this scenario, they can only be independents (barbarians), I incluyed them by events with some English helps to Protestants and attacks in Hungary.
-Swedish were really very powerfull, probably so powerful as French (you can speak about Swedish power with Henrik ).But i will change the events of Swedish units in Germany.
(que pasa en el juego via email, que te te estan ganando los suecos eh?? )

	09-02-2001 03:40									#5
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Multiple events.... aaarghhh, I see you also succumbed to the trend Pero vamos a ver, Civ2 no era un juego donde se supone que tienes que pensar?

	09-02-2001 14:04									#7
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Well, yes, I was half-kidding. I was referring to multi-event scenarios Spartacus-like (sorry Shaka ) where you can't do anything on your own, only follow instructions from Event God But if used "wisely", multievents are a very powerful tool, that's true.

	09-02-2001 19:55									#8
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On a totaly unraleted note I would like to tell you that everyone is able to see what you write in spanish now, since the babelfish translation window has been added to the forums.

	09-02-2001 20:24									#9
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Well, that's pretty good ain't it? Although the translation is sometimes terrible: Jay Bee = Abeja de Jay... LOL!

I guess we only use Spanish when all the people in the discussion are Spanish-speaking, not to hide anything .

	10-02-2001 04:35									#12
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I also agree that the scn is a bit too slow. In spite of this it certainly has become a classic.

	11-02-2001 04:11									#16
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Well this certainly looks like a lively and interesting forum. I hadn't checked in until kIndals link to Scenario League, because I assumed it was all in Spanish.

30 Years War is one of my favourites. I had started a similar scenario myself 3 years ago, but stopped after Jesus released his. I had Bavaria instead of Poland and combined the Hapsburgs to allow a spot for a Palitinate/Savoy civ. The map was focused on central Europe.

The units which were different from Jesus' version included assassin, cavalier and Jesuit (spy) units. For leaders, I had Tilly, Mansfeld, Wallenstein, Gustavus Adolphus and Baner. I'll send you my old units gif. if you want. It's pretty basic, but I like the Jesuit - very menacing. I think you should keep your map and civs pretty much as they are. England played no part in this war, and Turkey can easily be represented by barbarians.

I agree that movement sould be faster, but use a higher road movement, eg. X4. Pikemen were the only defense against cavalry for musketeers and cannon, so if you keep the movement of cavalry at two, you can take advantage of the doubled against cavalry flag. Musketeers should be the standard offensive unit, cheap, and with a high attack factor and a weak (1 or 2) defense. Cavalry should be able to kill anything except pikemen. Make cavalry and cannons quite expensive compared to musketeers and pikemen.

Some suggestions for events: the Defenestration of Prauge, the Edict of Restitution, the resignation, recall and assassination of Wallenstein, if Gustavus Adolphus is killed, he's replaced by Marshal Baner, and the sack of Magdeburg, which caused the Protestant states to declare war on the Hapsburgs. Be sure to use the ONLY ONCE modifier for the Portugese Revolt event. As it now stands, it's the IBERIAN Revolt!

Good luck, I'm looking forward to this one!


[This message has been edited by techumseh (edited February 10, 2001).]

	11-02-2001 13:01									#17
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Send me the units, please. I have almost all finished but I would like to have a look.
Well, when people said me about changing the movement value, I think that everybody refered to make it normal, again, don“t you?
About musketeer as attack unit, i will do (in fact i do it in my Charles scenario )

	11-02-2001 13:38									#18
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The main thing about this era was that while water united, land divided. Therefore ships should have a high movement rate and land units as is (cavalry 3, infantry and artillery 1, roads 1/2).
Another leader for the swedes would be Lennart Torstenson, it was thanks to him and Banner that the Swedish army did as well as it did (actually it did better after Gustavus Adolfus death than it did whit him as comander, the king never got as far as his generals/field marshals, they where the ones that got the army a few miles from Vienna(they retreated after that but still...)).

	11-02-2001 20:55									#19
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Will do, but I need a current email address.

	12-02-2001 02:29									#21
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Oh, kIndal, sorry I didn't reply to your eMail yet. I'm sorry, but the questions you asked are kinda tough
I'll try to find out, but I don't know when I'm going to the library the next time, maybe Wednesday. I'll try to find the answers.

	12-02-2001 21:33									#23
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Hi, kIndal, sorry that I didn't make any comments here yet:

I like your 30 Years War scn very much, it's very addictive. The only weakness I find is, as the others have said, the slow movement.

I'd probably give roads its normal movement rate, and I'd definitely increase naval movement rate. I'd give all ships at least twice movement points as they have now.

This, along with the graphic modification (are you going to change the city graphics as well?), will surely make a great update for 30 Years War.

	13-02-2001 10:05									#24
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Yes update the ships movement, ships where the fastest way to travel these days, roads should stay att 1/2 though (atleast IMHO).
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited February 12, 2001).]

	13-02-2001 10:40									#25
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I'd advise you to use today's Evangelic flag. I think it is like the scandinavian ones, with a white background and a dark blue or dark purple cross.
BTW, which city would you consider for the protestant's capital?

	12-02-2001 23:15									#26
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I think he will give them several capitals.

	12-02-2001 23:44									#27
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I think I will increased the ships movement and too, I will surely increase the land movements to original terms (sorry Henrik but are 4 against 1, you lose )
I will support Charles“ cities.gif, I like it very much
Many thanks for the flag!!!!!!!!I will make it now
The first city that I have placed for Protestants is Berlin but I will place palaces in Leipzig, Stuttgart, Cassel and Amsterdam.

	13-02-2001 01:24									#28
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You could make the english protestant (if they are to be included, they wheren't in your original scenario), their foreign relations where much the same as the other protestants (excpet for competing whit the dutch about naval power).
If you are going to increase movement, i think you should do it by increasing the roads multiplier, not by adding movement points to units (well, if you include light cavalry as for example cossacks they could have a movement of 4 instead of normal cavalry (3) or Hussars/heavy cavalry/ light artillery (2) the infantry should stay at 1 movement point since the pikemans ability would be spoiled otherwise.)
A suggestion for an event is the sinking of the newly built Swedish flagship "Vasa", it sunk just outside the harbour on it's vergin tour, it was quite the lauging stock of Europe at the time (especially since it was named after the Swedish royal Dinasty (the "Vasas")), I could supply the text for the event if you like, since it was a big finacial pitfall for Sweden it should cost them a few hundreds of gold.
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited February 14, 2001).]

	14-02-2001 05:37									#29
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Including an Olivares-related event would be a nice touch from the Spanish point of view.

	14-02-2001 17:33									#30
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If I wasn't at school I would mail you this; I am not sure but the fact that you allways try to get the nations in your scenarios to loose money every turn is becouse of the poor state of economy in the 1600's, right? Too bad you can't make unit support into gold then (I am however trying to convince people in the civ 3 forum that it should be added atleast for scenario designers in civ 3).

To simulate the fact that the nations did loan a lot money from banks during this time you could have an event every (insert number) turn (or a random event) that says something about how you are able to convince bankers to loan you more money for your war. The money is eventually drained by the unbalanced budget annyway (and itwould be easier to explain as debts+ salaries)