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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoek on 02-25-2001 05:33 PM
I'm not completely sure about this, but if I'm not mistaken, most Latin Americans do have some Spanish blood, but that the make-up is mostly Indian. If this is so, then why do Latin Americans not feel a greater 1ness (  ) with the indigenous people of South and Central America?
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There's something of that, too, specially among poor and isolated regions, with strong indigenous cultural heritage... Chiapas may be a good example, as well as the most part of Perú and Bolivia, if I'm not wrong... But even they can't deny the strenght of the Spanish influence, showed in their language (some of them still retain their indigenous languages, but everyone knows Spanish) and religion...
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The reason why the indians adopted Spanish is because they were forced too. The indians (at least in Argentina) are ashamed of the fact that their own culture has been occluded by extermination by the Spanish.
If they could choose, they would have preferred never to meet the Spanish and this is hot off the pan. My father lived among indians two months a year, and they hate the loss of their culture. And that was due to the Spanish.
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Well Waku, 90% of the extermination in South America was undertaken by the Spanish directly or by Spanish borne diseases.
After that, there wasn't much left for native descendants of the Spanish to do.
Besides, the comparison between the way the Spanish annihilated the indians in comparison to all military campaigns undertaken by Latin Americans to exterminate them amounts to almost nothing.
Besides, they feel just as resentful to us, your descendants as well, in most cases at least.
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Allard HS
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quote:
The reason I ask is because a year ago, i travelled back to the Netherlands, which is where all of my heritage is from, and I discovered how disconnected i was from the people there.
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Hoek, great to speak you again. When were you in NL?
Anyway, I think there are two kinds of emigrants. Those who leave because they don't like the place they live in anymore, and those who hope to have a better (usually financially) life in another country.
Colonial nations such as Spain, and poor countries such as Italy, Greece, produce the second type, who live in their new country but still feel as Spanish, Italians and Greeks.
Those who leave because they don't like it anymore somewhere, like the Dutchmen who flew before or during the war, clearly left their country of origin forever to build a new life. It's logical that they don't keep their roots and their origins into their way of life, they don't regularly visit their old mothercountry, but fully created a new mothercountry.
Of course, it's also true that the Southern European people are more family-oriented, in total love with their country, etc. than us Northerners, but that's not the only reason.
Holland has had two great waves of emigration. In the 16th and the 20th century. The reason for the 20th I already explained, but the 16th century emigration was for a different reason, and that was the reason number two of the two. At those times, the Dutchmen just wanted to enrich themselves and return, anyway to retain their culture.
For example, president Roosevelt, originating from 17th century dutch immigrants in Nieuw Amsterdam, still was able to speak a few centuries of Dutch, but very old fashioned, 17th century-like Dutch, that had been passed on through all the centuries.
This proves that we Dutch are not always so neutral to the country of origin, but that it is more that the emigrants specifically choose their new independence.
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Oh, no, they are not.
The Spanish cast the indians down and they are the reason for the misery they live in.
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Mira, mi viaje no fue pura joda a la Patagonia.
Si vieras como les ha sido robada su cultura, su antigua forma de vida.
No creo que pasen hambre, pero las paredes de sus... chozas, ni siquiera forman una pared completa. Son ramas acumuladas y apiladas asi como se puede.
Y que mierda quieren que hagamos? Hablo por los individuos... el gobierno (viva el gobierno) se pasa los problemas del pueblo por el culo. Cualquiera sea el partido de turno.
Yo ya tenia decidido desde mucho tiempo ir a la Patagonia a ayudar a mejorar la situacion como medico de pueblo. Pero uno solo no alcanza. Y de la forma jodida en que esta el pais, no hay guita que alcanze y es "every man for himself" y la gente no se puede ocupar de los problemas ajenos cuando apenas si pueden resolver los propios.
No te dire que antes vivian mejor o peor, pero dormian con el estomago lleno. Ahora ya se disipo el impacto del exterminio, pero no viven mejor que antes tampoco. Y son menos y fueron exterminados por españoles.
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dp... oops.
[This message has been edited by The Hogfather (edited February 28, 2001).]
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La politica argentina son todos unos chorros. Los peronistas, los radicales, los de Cavallo, los de izquierda... todos unos chorros ladrones.
Aca, los que deberian gobernar, estan demasiado ocupado en cosas mas importantes.
Mira, acepto que cosas como la Campaña del Desierto ayudaron al exterminio y lo acepto. Pero no me vas a decir que quedaban muchos indigenas para 1860...
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Waku
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Cádiz, Spain
Nov 2000
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hogfather on 02-28-2001 09:33 PM
Pero no me vas a decir que quedaban muchos indigenas para 1860...
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Cada vez estoy más convencido de tu origen español, gallego diría yo, porque a cabeza dura no hay quien te gane.
Yo sólo me refiero al periodo que va desde 1492 a 1800.
Durante ese período se produjeron hechos lamentables contra los indígenas américanos por parte de los españoles
Esos hechos lamentables se siguieron cometiendo por españoles nacidos en Europa(mis antepasados) y por españoles nacidos en América(tus antepasados).
Con lo que aunque todos ellos en esa época eran de nacionalidad española, una vez que se produce la independencia la nacionalidad de esos españoles ahora es también argentina, chilena, mexicana, colombiana, etc.
Por lo tanto no me parece ético que tú como argentino (teniendo exactamente la misma resposabilidad que yo por esos actos) te eximas de toda culpa diciendo que lo únicos herederos de esos delitos seamos los españoles de hoy en día. No, los herederos de esos españoles son también americanos.
Ya sólo me queda diseñarte un escenario en el que la civilización amarilla destruya el imperio morado pero con la caida de la capital amarilla, el imperio amarillo se divida en amarillos (leales) y naranjas(rebeldes), con lo que aunque ahoran sean naranjas ellos también destruyeron el imperio morado. 
A mi ya me duele la cabeza  de hablar de esto y la verdad es que si todavía no me has comprendido yo me rindo, no creo que sea que no me entiendas, simplemente es que no quieres comprenderme.
PD: No me cansaré de elogiar el trabajo que haces con esas gentes.
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Yo comprendo tu postura, pero no estoy de acuerdo con tu definicion sobre los habitantes.
Hasta 1810, todas las campañas fueron mandadas a hacer por el Virrey del Vierreinato del Rio de la Plata, o del Peru o de Mexico. Yo estoy hablando de que los autores intelectuales fueron en su mayoria de las veces españoles.
Por supuesto, desde tu definicion, tienes toda la razon de la misma forma que yo con la mia.
Y lo de cabeza dura es por la sangre vasca. 
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26-02-2001 02:17
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