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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Exile on 04-14-2001 10:38 PM
Firstly, my sources indicate that the period you're covering is at the cusp of the Bronze Age/Iron Age. It was apparently just at this time, in this region, that the transition from bronze weaponry to iron weaponry occurred. I would think about making that transition an essential part of the scenario.
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Yes, that was one of the more important facts I wanted to somehow depict in the scn. I think that only Celts, Etruscans, Greeks and Carthaginians should have access to Iron Working techs.
One of the paths to victory playing as the Tartessians should require "trading" (not discoverying, which might be very easy and quite unrealistic) Iron Working techs from the Greeks or the Celts.
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One way to do this would be to give bronze-armed troops 1 hit point and iron-armed troops 2.
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Yes, but I've read that the Greeks used to consider Tartessian bronze as a more valuable metal than any other bronze. Perhaps we could depict that making all Tartessian bronze units veterans?
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I have yet to find any substantial information on the ancient kingdom of Tartessos. The Penguin Atlas of Ancient History shows where it was and who was nearby, but doesn't tell me anything about force composition, culture, economy, or politics.
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I think we've already got what we need for that. If you are interested, check the other thread about Tartessos (Tartessos: Help me defend Schulten's theoris), we had a number of interesting discussions there. For further information about Tartessos and about Adolf Schulten, feel free to contact me via email.
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What I have discovered is that this region was contested during this period by; Greeks, Phoenicians, Etruscans, Celts. And of course there were "native" elements; the Numidian kingdoms in north Africa and the Iberians.
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So that proves that we made the right choice with the 7 Civs for the scn! 
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Apparently, the Iberian penninsula was the source for mineral wealth during this period. My sources say that gold, tin, copper, lead, and especially silver were all abundant and sought after. Given that, I would certainly think about incorporating this idea of the western Mediterranean's "mineral storehouse" idea into the scenario.
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Yes, we'll put in 5 special terrains for them. We don't really need Glaciers, Arctic and Jungle terrains, so at least three of those can be put as "actual" terrain squares, not just "specials", so they won't be randomly placed over the map.
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The beginning of the period is, however, characterized by the sharp sea battle off Alalia on Corsica between the Phocian Greeks and the Etruscans.
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The Battle of Alalia was fought in 535 AD according to my references. The Etruscans were allies to the Carthaginians, and, according to Schulten, the Phocean Greeks were allied to the Tartessians. In fact, Schulten pointed out that this battle meant the "beginning of the end" for Tartessos, as after it, the Carthaginians could have free access to the Gibraltar Strait and to the Atlantic.
I look forward to your comments and to your take on the tech tree.
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Waku
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Cádiz, Spain
Nov 2000
time: 06:14
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quote:
Tartessos, la ciudad sin historia by Juan Maluquer de Motes
La metalurgia
...la gran riqueza del país en oro, plata, cobre, estaño, hierro y plomo fue...
...el período de mayor esplendor tartésico abarca desde mediados del VIII a mediados del VI AC, período que corresponde al desarrollo de la monarquía de Argantonio y período en el que se desarrolla el arte orientalizante...
...Nos hallamos ante tres grados de desarrollo técnico. En el primero, la metalurgia se limita al beneficio del cobre y el oro; luego se introduce el beneficio de la plata y el plomo, y se realizan los primero ensayos para endurecer el cobre mediante la adición de arsénico hasta descubrir el estaño. El uso del arsénico, que se obtenía como subproducto en los mismos yacimientos, se realiza principalmente en el sudeste, donde no existe estaño. Sólo cuando se conocerá el rico estaño aluvial de occidente, aparecerá el verdadero bronce. En el estadio tartésico se añade ya el beneficio del hierro.
El conocimiento del hierro debió llegar a Tartessos a través de las colonias fenicias que lo utilizaban normalmente.
...el comercio de metal debió ser en su comienzo un simple comercio de recogida de chatarra y su transformación en lingotes representa una segunda etapa, puesto que requiere el establecimiento de fundiciones.
...los ríos del sur y del oeste arrastraban arenas auríferas...serán explotados por lavado y decantación. El estaño se obtenía de igual forma...
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quick translation:
rich in gold, silver, copper, tin, iron and lead
tartessian splendor from mid VIII BC to mid VI BC, with Argantonius (monarchy) and eastern style art...
Three technical degrees: first, copper and gold.
Second, silver and tin, first attempts to harden copper by adding arsenic later tin. Arsenic used in SE where there's not tin to be found. Bronze after finding Western alluvial tin (decanting).
Iron known through phoenician colonies.
Metal trade: First, metal scraps. Later, lingots smelting.
Souther & Weatern rivers: gold, decanting
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Exile
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of the Benighted Realms
Sep 2000
time: 23:14
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Fiera, here are some of my thoughts about an ancient period tech tree.
First of all, I'd like to talk about some concepts. A civ2 scenario is an abreviation of the entire civ2 game, so, when making an alternative tech tree, it's a good idea to start by looking at the default techs that suit the scenario. There is no rule that says one must change everything. When it comes to technological advancements, the civ2 tech tree is not a bad place to start. Some default techs should probably be used for your scenario. I would suggest that Alphabet & Writing be used, possibly renamed basic and widespread literacy. Rename Warrior Code to Archery and don't make it a preq for anything else. You might alternatively rename it Missle Weapons and make both Archer and Slinger units available with this tech.
"Industrial pottery production"; This is an important distinction to make, and one that illustrates some changes that I would suggest to the basic tech tree. During this period, when scholars talk about pottery, they are not speaking about the basic ability to create terra cotta utensils, but to the manufacture of pottery for various and specific uses. I would suggest that you rename the default Pottery tech something like Food Storage (leaving the Granary improvement assigned to it) and assign the name of Pottery to another tech. The tech then called Pottery should be a preq for a "Trade" tech, together with seafaring. Seafaring itself should have Mapmaking (renamed Shipbuilding) and Local Trade (a new tech) as its preqs. There is a point to be made here. No single tech should be assigned as the "Trade" tech. Instead, there should be several techs that deal with the expansion of trade, beginning with Barter, Local Trade, a Mediterranean Trade, and then a Trade Networks or maybe Trade Culture tech. The reason; the Halstatt culture in central Europe during this time certainly traded, and with the Mediterranean centers, but they had no local pottery industry, and one simply cannot compare the trade practised by these people with the ongoing, widespread, and politically important trade in the Mediterranean. The expansion of trade networks was not simply a change in outlook, but also required the acquisition of appropriate technologies, hence a ladder of "trade" technologies. Additionally, I would suggest that The Wheel be a preq for the new Pottery tech. The potter's wheel was an essential element of the type of pottery mass production practised by the Mediterranean (primarily Greek) cultures. I would rename Construction Architechture (sp?) and make Masonry and Bridge Building its preqs. Masonry and Basic Literacy would be the preqs for Metallurgy tech, which would be a preq itself for Bronze Working, which would then be a preq for Iron Working. Metallurgy and Mathematics would be preqs for Currency, and Currency (together with one of the maritime techs,) would be one of the preqs for one of the advanced "trade" techs, (possibly the Trade Culture tech). I would assign the basic defensive units to metallurgy, not Bronze working, and each successive metal working breakthrough would allow the building of new, more effective units. Bridge Building should have Masonry and Mathematics as preqs, and the "catapult" type units (I would recommend several types) would be available with a Siege Warfare tech, possibly with Iron Working and Architechure as preqs. There is a pattern here. Increasingly sophistication in the activity of trade went hand-in-hand with increasing levels of sophistication in nautical technologies. There was a clear "ladder" effect. A basic Shipbuilding tech should be the preq, together with Local Trade, for a Seafaring tech, which itself should be a preq for Navigation tech, together with Astronomy. This Navigation tech, together with Currency, should be the preq for Mediterranean Trade.
Military techs; During this period, Halstatt Celts were still using chariots, but only chieftains could afford them. Archeology in Spain has also revealed chariots in Tartessian burials, so this unit should probably be very basic and easily obtainable, and not as powerful as the default unit. I would suggest, especially for the Celts, a Warband unit that was very powerful, but very expensive and could only be produced if the Celtic population becomes extremely dense. I would create a separate, civ-specific tech for this unit. The Phalanx unit is a good idea, but I would give it a higher defense value for this scenario, because its usefulness will, historically, remain throughout the scenario. A 3 defense rating sounds good, but playtesting should reveal the soundness of unit numbers. The Phalanx unit should be tied to Bronze Working and possibly civ-specific Phalanxes are advisable. Almost needless to say, better ships should be assigned to better nautical technologies. I would rename Caravans to Trade Goods and it might be novel to create several types of these, possibly some with their own nautical mobility.
Details; I would rename Sanitation to Hygiene and its preqs would be Architechure and (Widespread) Literacy, and tying the Sewer System improvement to it. I would make the preqs for Polytheism Astronomy and Mysticism, but leave the Ceremonial Burial>Mysticism>Astronomy progression alone. Philosophy's preqs would be Mediterranean Trade and Polytheism. University, renamed Academe', would have Philosophy and mathematics as preqs.
This is all pretty basic stuff, rough ideas, and derives from the reading I've been doing through the past week. If this meets with your approval, let me know and I'll see about filling in some more detail. As an aside, thinking about the "Ancient" variant tech tree has sparked some thoughts about putting together my own Ancient Mediterranean scenario. We'll see what happens . . .
Salutations,
Exile
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited April 20, 2001).]
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Exile
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of the Benighted Realms
Sep 2000
time: 23:14
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JayBee; in Barry Cunliffe's Prehistoric Europe, An Illustrated History, on page 341, paragraph 4, "On the outskirts of the settlement, at La Joya, lay a cemetery where some of the local Tartessian elite were buried in the seventh century. In one, tomb 17, the dead noble was provided with a chariot of walnut wood decorated with bronze and accompanied by an ivory box, and a set of ritual bronze vessels comprising a jug, a dish, and an incense burner." In academic terms, this book is a survey, not a monograph, but it is a dependable and recent survey. I used other sources for my suggestions, but Cunliffe's book was invaluable.
Salutations,
Exile
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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:14
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Waku,
gracias de nuevo por lo del libro! And for the quotes as well, it seems a very interesting work, I'll try to find it here.
Oh, and thanks for supporting my cause against the "infidel" Jay Bee...  
Exile,
your idea to make a good use of the default Civ2 tech seems pretty right to me. I had already talked about that with Chris, I think we don't really need to overcomplicate the tech tree, just make it more fun and interesting than the default Civ2 for the period we plan to depict.
I 100% agree with your thoughts about Trade. I think making a "ladder" of Trade techs, you add a fun aspect to the game which is also related to the actual period of the scn.
The Architecture idea sounds also good. Scholars have pointed out how basic the Tartessian architecture was, so now Masonry should only be available to Tartessians, Celts, Numidians and Ibers, while the Greeks, Cats, and Etruscans should have knowledge of the "true" Architecture, which would allow things like Aqueducts and maybe improved Temples, FE.
Regarding siege warfare, I think that the first step should be the Battering Ram (Greek accounts tell that it was invented in the siege of Gadir by a wise Carthaginian), and that we should not go too far away in siege techs ('cause we only plan to expand until 509 bC). Maybe Ballistas after Battering Ram, and then Catapults will be OK, what do you think?
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I would suggest, especially for the Celts, a Warband unit that was very powerful, but very expensive and could only be produced if the Celtic population becomes extremely dense.
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This seems very interesting, but how can we implement it?
I agree with what you say about Phalanxes. Civ-specifics graphics won't be a problem, I think.
quote:
I would rename Caravans to Trade Goods and it might be novel to create several types of these, possibly some with their own nautical mobility.
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Hmm... I think you can't assign the sea domain to a Trade unit, but everything else sounds right to me.
Regarding Philosophy and Academe, it would be fine, but they don't seem very historical taking in mind what map we have, and Philosophy would mean a great advantage to the first player to discover it, wouldn't it?
quote:
If this meets with your approval, let me know and I'll see about filling in some more detail.
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Yes, please, I for one think that your basic approach deserves a big thumbs up. If you'd like to consider the comments I've posted about and maybe include a few new ideas, I think then we'll almost have a complete and very interesting tech tree for the game. Thanks again for your work!
quote:
As an aside, thinking about the "Ancient" variant tech tree has sparked some thoughts about putting together my ownAncient Mediterranean scenario. We'll see what happens . . .
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Hmm... bad news, since that will mean competition for me...
Jesús,
I think we won't stick that much to the book, but at least I'd like to give some tribute to Schulten, since some people, as FE you , seem to take his work not very seriously...
However, if you're up again to some historical discussion, the other thread is still waiting for new comments (I made some interesting and more modern readings and I've got some things to tell you about the "historical" Tartessos...)
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Fiera on 04-21-2001 03:09 " of
I think we won't stick that much to the book, but at least I'd like to give some tribute to Schulten,
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placing a non-existant city in the map ain't it enough tribute? You could add another one called Schultenia (Sorry I couldn't help it ).
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since some people, as FE you , seem to take his work not very seriously...
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Seriously is not the word, It's only that Tartessos city was an invention of him and you do not want to admit it
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However, if you're up again to some historical discussion, the other thread is still waiting for new comments (I made some interesting and more modern readings and I've got some things to tell you about the "historical" Tartessos...)
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I'd love to hear them! A few days ago I discovered a book called "History of Spain for Skeptics" Outstanding. May I dare to recommend you to read the chapter dedicated to Schulten and Tartessos City?
On another topic, I know I did the same for my Celts and Iberians scenario but perhaps you might want to avoid the inconsistency of having Tartessians (Turdetans) and Iberians at the same time, as the first were an Iberian tribe. May be you could replace the term 'Iberian' by another more generic, or using the name of another real tribe, e.g. ilergetes
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Exile
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of the Benighted Realms
Sep 2000
time: 23:14
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Fiera, give me a couple of days to do some more reading and I'll tighten up the tech tree for you. In order to avoid the article-length post necessary to provide you with the information, I will email you, if that's ok. I had forgotten about not making trade units sea units, so that idea is out, but will consider several types of trade units that each come along with one of the "trade" techs. What I see over and over again in the literature is the overwhelming quantity of pottery shards that are dug up from the archological sites. This is not just in Spain, but everywhere in the Mediterranean littoral. I'll think about that for a few days and see what occurs to me. One way to force the players to seriously consider trade is to 1.) increase the tech paradigm so that trading, any trading, has a strong incentive due to the free science bonus with each established trade route, and 2.) Give the civs you want to participate heavily in trade a lot of city improvements to support and a government that will barely (or not quite) support them all, like Monarchy. This forces the players to see trade as the only real way to increase their income. They can, of course, start selling off improvements, but, in the "right" kind of government, this tactic could also be less than desirable. As you say, we certainly won't need to incorporate all the available tech slots, and I'll try to keep it relatively simple. I'll also try to avoid all the "incidental" techs; techs that have inadvertent side effects. If you'd like the details to be a surprise upon release, then please feel free to email me with all further correspondence on this stuff.
And please, this isn't work. Not for me. I enjoy putting together tech trees.
Salutations,
Exile
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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee on 04-21-2001 05:01 PM
I'd love to hear them!
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OK, but please give me some time. You know, translating these things to English is sometimes a pain, and I have a few things to do first, but the discussion will be running again, I promise...
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A few days ago I discovered a book called "History of Spain for Skeptics" Outstanding. May I dare to recommend you to read the chapter dedicated to Schulten and Tartessos City?
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Yes, I know the book, but haven't read it. I also found a webpage, entitled Histeria de España, that you'll find funny. Here's the URL:
http://www.lapaginadefinitiva.com/h.../histeria/1.htm
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On another topic, I know I did the same for my Celts and Iberians scenario but perhaps you might want to avoid the inconsistency of having Tartessians (Turdetans) and Iberians at the same time, as the first were an Iberian tribe.
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The idea is to have the Iberians as an "imaginary" untight confederation of Iberian tribes. There's no problem with having the Tartessians out of that confederation, as Schulten believed Tartessos was a Kingdom, an independent political entity. However, things like similar city and units graphics will be in order for the Iberians and Tarts, I think.
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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Exile on 04-21-2001 07:30 PM
Fiera, give me a couple of days to do some more reading and I'll tighten up the tech tree for you. In order to avoid the article-length post necessary to provide you with the information, I will email you, if that's ok.
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Yes, that's OK for me.
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What I see over and over again in the literature is the overwhelming quantity of pottery shards that are dug up from the archological sites. This is not just in Spain, but everywhere in the Mediterranean littoral.
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Yes, we definitely need to make trade important. In fact, I think that the only way to win as the Tarts should be maintaining an active trade with the Greeks, Celts and Ibers, instead of only "stockpiling" defensive units against the Carthaginians. I just don't want to make an Ancient war game, if you know what I mean.
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If you'd like the details to be a surprise upon release, then please feel free to email me with all further correspondence on this stuff.
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I don't know, I think we can keep the discussion of general game concepts here, so that everyone interested may take part, and then we can arrange a few surprises when we are actually putting everything together.
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And please, this isn't work. Not for me. I enjoy putting together tech trees.
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Yes, I understand you. I really enjoy designing units or city icons, but when it comes to design a tech tree is more like work for me.
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18-04-2001 04:36
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