12-03-2001 10:01									#31
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John-SJ, I just read the additional posts in your EU Forum thread and would like to make some comments here instead. It does appear that your style of gaming is very similar to mine. (I should have remembered that from our CM discussions awhile back.) I, too, am a very meticulous gamer, to the point that I don't play a strategy unless I can keep volumns of very detailed logs (to me, that's half of the fun of playing). But there's something about EU I can't put my finger on. I played 2 more hours last night as Russia in GC (advancing at my typically slow rate) and when I got done, I saw that I'm in the year 1495. This was after 2 hours the previous night analyzing and logging EVERYTHING at the beginning and playing the first year. Like I said above, it's not the UI or the manual or anything like that, everything works fine for me. But what is it? Does it really have to do with the 'Fun Factor'? I don't know. What I do know is that every game of Civ2 is fun for me (and still is unless I play one of the 1000+ units war scenarios). I haven't felt that way about EU yet, it's still more of a chore. I think as folks have said, this is the hard part. I suspect that one day soon, EU will be one of our most favorite games to play.

	12-03-2001 07:19									#32
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Oh, I think, at lease subconciously, we are still looking for the next Holy Grail (after Civ2) and knew that EU would come close (it does, imo). We're maybe envious of those that can play Combat Mission (or any other title) non-stop since last summer, or perhaps a better example, all of the MMORPG games that consumes alot of time for some folks. Instead, us strategy gamers bounce back and forth between promising titles and still not having any of them quite match the fun and strategies and customization of a 6 year old game!

EU is the best grand strategy game since Civ2, but it is not as good as Civ2, or even the promise of Civ3.

	12-03-2001 08:57									#33
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Well, I'll say right here and now that Civ2 is boring to play after EU.


Is it better than Civ2? I don't know, if I'm still playing it in four or five years, yes it is.


But over the past two weeks and right now, I'd rather play EU than Civ2.

	12-03-2001 09:13									#35
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john,

Doesn't this sound like giving up?

quote: Hmmm, I should play EU again, but damned memory hogging program

quote: The 'hook' is a problem.

Sounds like somebody has walked away from the game. About the only positive I've read from Imran lately is:

quote: Hell, I'll still play the game now and again, and this forum will still get its posts.

Contrast that with:

quote: Hey, do you think for my location, I should put 'Europa Universalis Pusher'?

Huh? Awfully quick thaw there...bought the hype and then actually played the game a few days, I guess. No big deal, mind you. We've all bought into the hype of a game, really wanted it to be the be-all and end-all of TBS games, only to get a day or two in and realize something is seriously wrong.

Is that the problem here? Are there serious problems with EU the deeper you get? If so, would you please explain some. Not being able to see your units on the politcal screen (at least remove the damned water-mark beneath the ships!) seems less than brilliant...as does the hidden religion screen. Sounds like a headache so far...
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 11, 2001).]

	12-03-2001 09:58									#36
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Yin,

Um TBS game??

	12-03-2001 10:31									#37
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Do you mean the acronym? TBS = Turn-based strategy. I assume you know that, however, so you must mean the other thing...

Ah, yes. EU is supposedly RTS (real-time strategy)? As I understand it, though, it's essentional turn-based (using pause button a lot)? It' somewhat hard to tell based on some of the feedback.

	12-03-2001 11:51									#38
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It's real time in that the clock is always moving forward.


You can issue orders to troops, begin construction of various things, but nothing will actually happen until you unpause the game.

	12-03-2001 20:01									#39
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IMO, Europa Universalis is a TBS game that happens to have a clock controlled end turn function.

One important distinction between RTS and TBS games is the way movement is handled. Suppose you have two units, one in province A and the other in B. In an RTS game if you move the A unit into B and the B unit into A the tow units will meet somewhere in the middle. If you do this in a TBS game the units make quantum jumps from A to B and B to A. They do not meet in the middle. EU follows the TBS model.

I don't want to scare anyone away from EU because I think it has a lot of potential and it's obvious from reading the EU forum that a lot of people are really loving this game but the last game that I recall that tried the "clock controlled turn counter hiding a TBS game inside an RTS shell" trick was Star Wars Rebellion.

John-SJ

[This message has been edited by John-SJ (edited March 12, 2001).]

	12-03-2001 20:28									#40
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Wow...while I suppose I can tell myself "The border was wide, and the troops never saw each other" that doesn't seem comforting. John, if you care to share more of these gems in an e-mail, I'd be glad to hear before I buy or trade for this game.

	12-03-2001 21:42									#42
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You guys forget Railroad Tycoon II, which I find matches the RTS/TBS mechanics of EU very closely.

	13-03-2001 03:35									#44
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Ah, poor Imran...

You cried for this forum. Don't hide the fact. In fact, I think this forum is a good idea.

O.K., you never said EU is the best strategy game ever. But you think its better than Civ2, right? I guess that explains your jumping up and down like a little girl a few days ago...

And yet, "The hook is a problem" in this "memory hog" game which you won't play until its patched. Yep, that sounds better than Civ2 for sure!

Go figure. Imran doesn't make sense again.

	13-03-2001 07:25									#46
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LOL! You never fail me. So funny, you are. If I feel up to it, I'll scrounge around through some of your girlish squeals...

	13-03-2001 07:42									#47
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The Scene: Little Baby Imran wakes Christmas morning. He has nearly pissed himself dreaming of the pretty box that might be waiting for him downstairs. To match the pretty wrapping that certainly MUST be on the box (I mean, this is the work of the Netherlands or some far off dreamy place!), he puts some pretty ribbons in his hair and leaps down toward the tree:

So, last night I called FedEx and got the tracking number. At about 2:00 AM last night, I read it was in Newark. 20 minutes away. I was happy, I knew it'd be in New Brunswick today. So I woke up early for a Friday (1:00 PM, I know, I know ), and immediatly went to Fedex.com. Saw that it was signed for at 9:56 AM. I then jumped in the shower, got clean, changed and went to the University Mailbox. I took the FedEx statement printout just in case. I went to my mailbox and found the 'Package Delivered' note, which meant I didn't need the FedEx printout. I then went to the Front Desk, handed the lady the slip and my Student ID. Within a minute I was signing a Palm Pilot and tucking the box under my arm to bring it to my dorm. And now, here I am. Of course, the best part is the bubblewrap

Woohoo!
*Does the happy dance*

WOOHOO! It's in Newark, like 20 minutes away from here

EXCELLENT!
All the minute things you wanted in Civ. Royal Marriages, Alliances, Trade, Colonies, Need for a Causus Belli, etc, etc.

Wonderful AI, that seems to be better than anything in the strategy genre before.

Can I be moderator of this forum?

BUT, there are already 3 (THREE) other EU threads on this forum already

Actually Imran this is already the fifth EU thread. And without any AAR's yet either. Pretty soon they'll have to give us our forum!

You bloody sneaky bastards... I luv ya!

WOOHOO! Imran has it in his grubby little hands!!!!
Wonderful game! As addictive as Civ, man! GET IT!

LOL! I can see John screaming his head off... 'WHERE'S MY DAMNED GAME?!'

Well, I would get my hopes up. It is AMAZING! I'm bouncing off walls!

Reviews Coming IN!

One of the most in depth historical strategy/simulations you've ever played. A cross between Civ, Risk, Diplomacy, and Imperialism. You have to balance money, technology, religion (especially with the Reformation and all), colonization, trade, and war. Very complex and good.

Europa Universalis Stories!

Woohoo! Since America gets it later, it gets better stuff.

HUZZAH! Europa Universalis, US version is GOLD! Due to ship on February the 21st for $40!

Ah, my suspicions are confirmed! The US version will have 11 scenarios out of the box. The ones from the Swedish/German versions and 3 new ones. Of course, you are free to DL them

I also have put a pre-order on it .

And I was mistaken.. there are 4 (FOUR) new scenarios: The Age of Revolution and the War for Independence are 2 seperate scenarios!

YAY! I got it...

Hey, do you think for my location, I should put 'Europa Universalis Pusher'?

The Scene: Little Baby Imran has played with his toy for two hours and decided it's too difficult and takes too much space under his bed. With ribbons tangling from his dejected curls, his parents ask why he already has stopped playing? Baby Imran simply pouts:

"Waiting for the patch...can't you READ, you friggen liars!"

Of course, now that I think about it, "WOOHOO" sounds more like Homer Simpson than a little girl. Even little girls tend to show a bit more restraint and logic. Yes, Homer Siddiqui Simpson.

[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 12, 2001).]

	13-03-2001 13:31									#48
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ROTFLOL!!
Obviously the noble sport of Imran-bashing has devotees outside the OT. You should come join us sometime and watch the undisputed heavy-weight champion Michael the Great in action.

	13-03-2001 14:11									#49
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Hey, I've seen MtG in action. I fought him once to what I considered a draw. We were talking about the Nogunri incident in Korea. Of course, I think he was only half-trying. But when it comes to Imran, the pure joy is in watching him self-destruct. Funny thing is, most of the time he begs for it...like some dizzy animal flinging itself in front of a Mack truck to teach the driver a lesson.

	13-03-2001 14:23									#50
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boys, please take it outside....

	14-03-2001 01:38									#51
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While I believe that EU is the best strategy game I've ever played, I can definitely see the lack of "immersion" in EU. Few games have truly given me a sense of "being there"; even Civ 2 and SMAC have been a little lacking in that department. Come to think of it, the only games that have been fully adequete were the Myth series and HOMM II.

	14-03-2001 01:39									#52
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What is your point? All of those phrases are like so what. I said MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more for SMAC.

And most of those quotes are answers to questions. I can probably take out a similar list of quotations for John-SJ, who started this thread (but you say he's alright).

Of course quotes like this:

quote: Reviews Coming IN!

and this (which I didn't even say):

quote: Actually Imran this is already the fifth EU thread. And without any AAR's yet either. Pretty soon they'll have to give us our forum!

mean I'm squealing like a little girl.

Sorry, try again (of course, you can try and try, and attempt to make facts twist to fit your conclusions, but we all know that you've lost this round, big time).

If you came up to me and said there was this really great game. Models 1492-1792 amazingly well. Greatly researched, and you have to deal with military, economy, trade, religion, diplomacy, etc, etc, but the only downsides was that it was a memory hog and had no hook, I'd say, "Let's buy it". And I did. I'm just doing what many people that bought SMAC did. Wait for the new patch, so the game is more playable.

Front Office Football is one of my favorite games of all time. Haven't played it in a while, why? Because there is a nasty bug that affects Voodoo card users (me being one of them). So, while I love it, it'll crash a great number of times. SO I don't play it.

Oh, and PS, Kaut with respect in the OT? HA! ROFLOL! Kaut bashing is fun. Dropping know-it-alls rocks!
[This message has been edited by Imran Siddiqui (edited March 13, 2001).]

	14-03-2001 01:48									#53
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Watch out Ramo, Yin might say you are simply here for 'entertainment' because you said it has no hook either.

Want to get a multiplayer game started one day? I can get Boshko and maybe BD interested as well. Me and Boshko had this REALLY fun mutiplayer, but it was racked with bugs.

That, and I want to wait for badboy to be reduced in the next patch. It is hard as hell to play a middle groung (peacefully with few warlike tendancies) on the continent with the badboy being what it is. I also think it'd be better with the IGC (Improved Grand Campaign). That's a great mod!

	14-03-2001 02:12									#54
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Sounds great, Imran. I've been having badboy troubles, myself. After getting it up to ~85 by 1540, I had to...uhh.. "renormalize" the value .

	14-03-2001 02:31									#55
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LOL! *wink*

Still, this is the damned best strategy game to come out in a LOOOOOONG time... since Civ2. I'd call it better than SMAC (which also was a memory hog), but something about Civ made it better than EU. I can't put my finger on it (perhaps the ability to play it in a window.. oh, and the music ).

	14-03-2001 04:45									#56
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The worst problem i've had with EU is some wierdness with my saved games. After playing for a while, it seems that if I attempt to load any save from inside the game it dumps me to the desktop. What really surprises me is that it works fine when I load a game from the main menu. What a pain.

	14-03-2001 09:42									#57
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Egads!

Um ... could we place this Imran vs Yin battle into the Apolyton Entertainment Classics archive? ;-)

	14-03-2001 09:50									#58
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Well, I'm respecting Markos' wishes to leave Homer alone. He's had enough of a beating in this thread. But watch for more later someplace else!

	14-03-2001 10:01									#59
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For the record (and this my last post on this particular topic), when Mike posts about EU, he doesn't sound either like a little annoying girl OR Homer Simpson. Just little Immrey Baby does, but we love him for it...even if he is so confused as to not see it in his own cute writing.

When I get back to the States, I'm gonna buy one of those fluffy little dogs that barks like it's some killing machine (thought it can't even beat the next door neighbor's cat) and pees all over the funiture (from over-breeding and chewing on soap). His name will be Imran.

EDIT: Actually, "Siddiqui" sounds so much cooler. I'll train him to take a dump evey time I yell: "Post your thoughts, Siddiqui-baby!"
[This message has been edited by yin26 (edited March 14, 2001).]

	14-03-2001 11:08									#60
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Edit: OK edited my comment since I don't want a pissing war on this thread.

Coming back to the topic. I personally don't rate "immersion value" all that important in strategy games. Chess has zero immersion value but is yet an amazing game. What's important IMO is the nature of the intellectual problems the game sets you and I think EU rates pretty high in that regard because of its very rich and realistic historical framework. Also very important to me is the ratio of thinking/micromanagement. I used to find Civ2/SMAC rather frustrating in that regard. EU definitely reduces the proportion of your game devoted to chore-like activites as compared to strategic analysis.
[This message has been edited by Kautilya (edited March 14, 2001).]